The general "English" thread (grammar, expressions, etc.)

[himitsu]

If we have a question that doesn`t seem "big" enough for an own thread, let`s just post it here.

List of Q&A in this thread:


What`s the difference between e.g. 1200 "one-thousand-two-hundred" and "twelve-hundred" (e.g. dollars, years, etc.)?

Common opinion: "There is no difference. Just preference. "

Rules: not found yet, except "only for even numbers, like 1200,3200"


Zero vs oh

Some opinions:
- I say zero when saying number.
-I use "oh" when I say phone numbers and dates. I only really use zero when I am actually referring to the number itself.
-when telling time. Example 1:05 is read one "oh" five.

Rules: not found yet


High numbers like 4563: with or without AND ( "4500 AND 63")

Common opinion: either is fine
Rules: not found yet


Pronunciations of a final 's' sound (in plurals or 3rd person verbs) – z or s sound

Not clarified yet (own preference?)


Pluralizing Japanese words (katanas, kimonos)

Various opinions

Rules: not found yet


If vs. When

ex: ... I have a chance I want to stay in a Mongolian tent.

Answer: "both are not correct because there needs to be an "I" before "have." Both if and when would work, but the use of when would indicate that there is a strong possibility that that person will be able to stay in the tent where as if "if" were used it would not be a high probability of occurring.


Verbs in answers (is the verb absolutely necessary when answering?)
(e.g. Who is it? - It's me. / Me.)

Answer: "Technically if a verb is not present it is not a sentence in the formal sense. It would just be a fragment. English speakers use fragments in verbal conversation all the time, but they are not supposed to be used in more technical writings, the those found on tests.


How to write the following: 1, 4, 7, capital i

Various opinions (up to you?): with/without bars, lines, open/closed, etc.

Rules: not found yet


Reading of date years
Common opinion: "Dates in history are always split in half: 1975 --> nineteen seventy-five."

Rule?


Article "the" necessary or not
(e.g. "I go to school on Fridays", no "the", how about "I go to (the) cram school (elementary school, junior high school, etc)"? )

Various opinions

Rules: not found yet


WHO vs WHOM

General opinion: "who" often used instead of "whom" in spoken language

Rule: in formal language, if an object or object sentence (relative clause) follows, it must be WHOM ("the man who is standing there" (HE is standing), but "the man whom you see there" (you see HIM))


"1st grade / grade 1 (students)" vs "1st year (students)"

Various opinions

Rules: not found yet


Which vs. That

Common opinion: interchangeable in relative clauses

Rules: no source found yet


High Numbers
(e.g. 1,000,000,000 (US should be "billion", UK "1000 million"!?)
1,000,000,000,000 (trillion vs. billion!?))

Not enough opinions yet


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Question: What`s the difference between e.g. 1200 "one-thousand-two-hundred" and "twelve-hundred" (e.g. dollars, years, etc.)?

[jessen100]

twelve-hundred is easier to say.

[Otaku]

...one's a number and one's an old TV series?

[jeisensei]

There is no difference. Just preference. For example I say "one thousand two hundred" when I talk with Japanese people in English because it is easy for them to understand but I say "twelve hundred" when talking with my English speaking friends because it is easier to say and more efficient.

[Paul]

I would say no real difference, with the exception of talking about what year.

If you were talking about the twelve hundreds, then 1200's would be fine as I see it, however it it was a specific year like 1245, then it should be said twelve forty five, and not twelve hundred and forty five. (Yes I admit there are exceptions to that as well)

[Paul]

How about zero vs oh? I think we may have discussed this before a bit but since we're on numbers here, any comments?

[pakalikaPakalika]

I say zero when saying number. I know some people that say oh when giving phone numbers.

[jeisensei]

I use "oh" when I say phone numbers and dates. I only really use zero when I am actually referring to the number itself.

[Paul]

I have a numb nut teacher that teaches "oh" for telephone numbers and time, and zero for the number, and again "oh" for years with a zero in them like 19 "oh" 9.

But the same teacher refuses to allow the kids to use "oh" when telling time. Example 1:05 to her is read, one-five, and not one "oh" five. I know I wrote about this previously but the same num nutts teacher did it to me again recently and I feel like such an asshole for letting her get to me. on me for letting it happen.

[Richard_BenoitEnglipedia Drone]

I have a numb nut teacher that teaches "oh" for telephone numbers and time, and zero for the number, and again "oh" for years with a zero in them like 19 "oh" 9.

But the same teacher refuses to allow the kids to use "oh" when telling time. Example 1:05 to her is read, one-five, and not one "oh" five. I know I wrote about this previously but the same num nutts teacher did it to me again recently and I feel like such an asshole for letting her get to me. on me for letting it happen.

You are not alone! Seems like we all have at least one of these teachers in all the schools!

[jeisensei]

I always get a look of shock when I tell people that you have to actually say the "oh" when reading time. As with more things like that it comes from the Japanese language not pronouncing the 0; 1時5分 instead of 1時05分. And, not to go against my English upbringing, I don't think there is a real reason to say the 0 any way so I don't really fault them (though I do correct them as per my job).

[azuhlLt.]

I always get a look of shock when I tell people that you have to actually say the "oh" when reading time. As with more things like that it comes from the Japanese language not pronouncing the 0; 1時5分 instead of 1時05分. And, not to go against my English upbringing, I don't think there is a real reason to say the 0 any way so I don't really fault them (though I do correct them as per my job).

The "0" is necessary for clarification, some people are unaware of the 24-hr clock and as a consequence they ask; "In the morning or at night?", even when I've used the "0". This is somewhat annoying, so I reserve a special place on my 'Hate-list" for people like this.
I see it as part of my job to educate, ultimately it removes the need for further questions with people in-the-know. I believe it should be taught, so more people in Japan can use the 24-hr clock, thus making my life easier...also maybe the phonetic alphabet.

[jeisensei]

Hmm... I didn't consider the 24 hour clock. I was thinking of the "oh" used for minutes only (as in from 01 to 09). I do agree with the 24 hour clock point even though I never use it heh

[Richard_BenoitEnglipedia Drone]

Good point about the Japanese structure leaking into English jeisensei. If I had any more passion left in me for this day, I would like to explore other Japanese language habits which they carry over to English...but I don't.

[Otaku]

I have some, don't I?

[himitsu]

So how about... 9423 dollars, you would say ninetyfourhundred twentythree dollars?? sounds kinda odd.. or is the "hundred" expression only for even numbers (like 5400, 2300...)?

[pakalikaPakalika]

only for even number, like 1200,3200

[jeisensei]

Here is another question though related. In the case of a number like 4563 would you say "four thousand 5 hundred and sixty-three" and who says it without the and in the middle?

[Otaku]

@Jei, you are referring to how the textbook states it, eh? Don't know about you but I switch between the two. :)

[jeisensei]

I also switch it up, but I had a teacher that would give me a dirty look every time I forgot to say the "and" because it has to be there according to her.

[jessen100]

i learned in school that "and"= a decimal point,

so One-hundred and 3 is 100.3
and
one-hundred-three is 103

i have my doubts about the actual correctness today, but thats what i was taught.

[jeisensei]

Interesting. I was taught to say point for a decimal point. So, 100.3 would be "one-hundred point three."

[Otaku]

Interesting. I was taught to say point for a decimal point. So, 100.3 would be "one-hundred point three."

I concur.

[jessen100]

i think everyone was.

[Richard_BenoitEnglipedia Drone]

Jiminy Cricket settles all controversy. At 7:40 He begins to sing that he wants to live "till one hundred AND three!"

Do yourself a favor and renounce any other foolish notions!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udk1S93KGc4

[jessen100]

i cant open that link :(

btw all i said is "thats what i was taught", which is a fact because it happened, not a notion.

there have been many musicians and lyricists that have sacrificed grammatical correctness for the sake of rhythm and style. i think its reasonable to say that Jiminy Cricket is a possible singer of this sort.

i dont feel that this controversy has been very settled by Jiminy Cricket.
perhaps its because i couldnt see the video.

[Paul]

will versus be going to......debate!

[himitsu]

will versus be going to......debate!

God, how I hate that.. (as much as simple past vs. past pefect). And don't forget there's also the future "ing" form! (like "what are you doing tonight/tomorrow..") Which might be only colloquial!?

[peet]

I don't agree with my JTE's (or the JHS 1st grade textbook's) focus on differentiating the various pronunciations of a final 's' sound (in plurals or 3rd person verbs).

My teacher goes into length telling them that 'likes' has an 's' (ス) sound and 'goes' has a 'z' (ズ) sound and that you have to memorize which sound for every word ending in s

My beef is that you can pronounce all ending 's's with a 'z' sound thus bypassing all this stupid memorization, and avoiding possible mistakes introduced by teaching multiple sounds. You can almost always substitute the hard ending 's' sounds for 'z' with no confusion (likez stopz, etc), but vice versa is BAD - 'sees' becomes 'cease', 'grows' becomes 'gross', etc..

I have no linguistic backing, but I'd imagine that all ending 's's were originally 'z's, but when we speak quickly after sounds like K,T,P, the mouth muscles don't relax quick enough and the soft 'z' sound comes out as a harder 's'. But if you speak slower than natural, or (god forbid) in katakana pronunciation which is how all the students speak here, the 'z' sound sounds closer to native English (ブックズ　sounds better than ブックス) to my ears...

The only exception I'd make is ~ts since you can teach it to Japanese as the tsu sound.

Anyone else agree?
How do I go about proposing this change to be implemented from the top level of Japanese education system

[Otaku]

I think you could make a case for your change, Peet. Now, you just have to find the right official to bribe.