Indefinite article

[mangakk]

I always assumed that the indefinite article "a" always came before a word beginning with a consonant and "an" always before a word beginning with a vowel. I was going through Wikipedia and found that it was not always true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The#Definite_article

[Otaku]

The way I remember this particular rule is that when a word starts with a vowel but says its own name, it doesn't need an N added to the A...usually: universe, unicycle, etc.

Now, for the high-level nerds out there, can someone tell me why I used an "an" before "N" in the above sentence?

[himitsu]

Amazing, I was teaching this and wondering about it today as well, and wanted to ask here!

The rule (which isn`t as simple as it sounds, imo) is that if the noun starts with a vowel SOUND (not letter), you need AN. Thus when saying a single letter, let`s say N, you`d say えん, not ん. (jp. can be wonderful sometimes), thus it starts with the vowel sound え.

Now what confuses me like hell are the イ and ワsounds, it`s supposed to be Y (universe) and W (one-yen coin), which are consonants, so you need A. Maybe my mind is not English enough, but to me ONE and UNIVERSE start both with vowel sounds (ウァン・イゥ）, in both cases you don`t use neither tongue, teeth nor lips.
So sometimes I`m a bit confused if A or AN is appropriate, especially if a word starts with i or u.
Like today, we had "eraser", which starts with イ but is AN. So I thought probably the conclusion is that イ sounds are not Y, but only ユ (so basically IU) sounds are counted as Y. But again, you say A YEAR, so here Y becomes イ and you use A... BUT WAIT! Why do you say then AN EAR, when it`s about the same pronunciation??!!?!
confusing as hell.. and now try to explain that to an ES student!

[himitsu]

if you want some more confusion, read this short thread

http://www.englishforums.com/English/AnYearVsAYear/cjknp/post.htm

First it seems clear, but then (pages 2-3) it`s getting more and more unclear..

[mangakk]

I guess this passage that I copied from Wikipedia should help understand it better.

"A" and "an" function as the indefinite forms of the grammatical article in the English language and can also represent the number one. An is the older form (related to one, cognate to German ein; etc.), now used before words starting with a vowel sound, regardless of whether the word begins with a vowel letter.[8] Examples: a light-water reactor; a sanitary sewer overflow; an SSO; a HEPA filter (because HEPA is pronounced as a word rather than as letters); an hour; a ewe; a one-armed bandit; an heir; a unicorn (begins with 'yu', a consonant sound).

[mangakk]

The way I remember this particular rule is that when a word starts with a vowel but says its own name, it doesn't need an N added to the A...usually: universe, unicycle, etc.

Now, for the high-level nerds out there, can someone tell me why I used an "an" before "N" in the above sentence?

I guess the passage above explains it all. They may begin with u, but they sound yu so we have a instead of an.

[Otaku]

The way I remember this particular rule is that when a word starts with a vowel but says its own name, it doesn't need an N added to the A...usually: universe, unicycle, etc.

Now, for the high-level nerds out there, can someone tell me why I used an "an" before "N" in the above sentence?

I guess the passage above explains it all. They may begin with u, but they sound yu so we have a instead of an.

Nope.

HINT: Think Scrabble.

[GETAK]

"an" is used before vowel sounds. So even when you have a 'u' as the first letter, the first sound is still a consonant. Same for the name of the letter 'n'. The first sound is a vowel sound.

"an" is used to make the transition into words starting with vowel sounds smoother, easier and more comfortable. Without it you have to stop your breath awkwardly to pronounce both vowel sounds. That or they just blend together into one goofy sounding syllable.

[Otaku]

"an" is used before vowel sounds. So even when you have a 'u' as the first letter, the first sound is still a consonant. Same for the name of the letter 'n'. The first sound is a vowel sound.

"an" is used to make the transition into words starting with vowel sounds smoother, easier and more comfortable. Without it you have to stop your breath awkwardly to pronounce both vowel sounds. That or they just blend together into one goofy sounding syllable.

Was you post answering my question?

[GETAK]

Just throwing in my two cents. I sort of scanned and addressed various things that I noticed.

[Otaku]

Just throwing in my two cents. I sort of scanned and addressed various things that I noticed.

That's cool. :)

----------------------------------

To answer the question I asked, 'an' was used before 'N' in my previous post because the letter 'N' is actually spelled 'en'...Scrabble geek I am.

[GETAK]

Oh, well then, yea... I was answering your question.

I would say though, that it's not because it's spelled 'en', but rather because when you say the letter N's name, it begins with a vowel sound.

[Otaku]

Oh, well then, yea... I was answering your question.

I would say though, that it's not because it's spelled 'en', but rather because when you say the letter N's name, it begins with a vowel sound.

Glad I'm not the only geek in the house.

[himitsu]

I think I actually answered your question right after you posted it, so saw it as "case closed" ^^'

[yesmikan]

"an" is used before vowel sounds. So even when you have a 'u' as the first letter, the first sound is still a consonant. Same for the name of the letter 'n'. The first sound is a vowel sound.

"an" is used to make the transition into words starting with vowel sounds smoother, easier and more comfortable. Without it you have to stop your breath awkwardly to pronounce both vowel sounds. That or they just blend together into one goofy sounding syllable.

This.

Sort of on topic: I have to add, the phrase "an historical" is a pet peeve of mine. Unless someone pronounces the word as "istorical," it breaks the a/an rule. Does anyone pronounce it as "istorical"? I've only ever heard the "his-" pronounced as "hiss," meaning it should always take "a."

Maybe it's a British vs American English thing. But if you pronounce it in the American way, "an" is wrong.

[moolooman]

Welcome to the forum.

David Beckham pronounces it istorical

[Otaku]

Nice first post, Yesmikan!

It really comes down to how you pronounce the 'h'. I would tend to lean away from the idea that 'a vs. an' has to do with countries Englishes versus a generational gap.

And the day I listen to David B. about English advice is that day he lends me his wife for a night.

http://www.betterwritingskills.com/tip-w005.html

[Paul]

And the day I listen to David B. about English advice is that day he lends me his wife for a night.

Until you posted this about Beckham's wife I thought you had good taste in women.

I wouldn't spend a night with her even if you paid me $1,000,000.00, ok I lied for that money I would spend the night with her, in separate rooms in the same hotel.

[Otaku]

And the day I listen to David B. about English advice is that day he lends me his wife for a night.

Until you posted this about Beckham's wife I thought you had good taste in women.

I wouldn't spend a night with her even if you paid me $1,000,000.00, ok I lied for that money I would spend the night with her, in separate rooms in the same hotel.

Dude, she was a Spice Girl! Enuf said...

[Paul]

Dude, she was a Spice Girl! Enuf said...

I am more into sushi than spice!

[Otaku]

Dude, she was a Spice Girl! Enuf said...

I am more into sushi than spice!

...you've been in Japan too long. DOH!

[Pitarou]

When I hear a hypercorrect type saying "an historic" I correct them and tell them they must drop the "h". :-)

As far as I can tell, the "hysterical" rule is a quirk of 19th Century English received pronunciation. If the word began with an "h" and the second syllable was stressed, they would drop the "h" just after an article. So they would say, "the 'istoric" and "an 'istoric", but "the history" and "this historic".

By the way, did you know that the pronunciation of "the" also changes? Listen to yourself say "It's the end of the world as we know it."

Dude, she was a Spice Girl! Enuf said...

Yeah, but not one of the sexy ones. Ginger was always the one for me.

[yesmikan]

By the way, did you know that the pronunciation of "the" also changes? Listen to yourself say "It's the end of the world as we know it."

My JTE explicitly pointed this out to students and had them practice the difference. The pronunciation of "the" changes depending on whether the following word begins with a vowel. It sounds like "thee" when it precedes a vowel.

I was impressed, and commented to her after class that this is something that I never thought about, as a native English speaker, and probably something that I would have overlooked if it were me teaching.



And to go back a little further in the conversation, I agree that the "a/an" assignment to "historical" should depend on whether the h is pronounced or not. It's when people use both "an" AND the h sound when my brain flares up; or when Americans drop the h, but have no other British mannerisms.

[jakezecake]

Guess I'm a bit off topic here as well, but my JTE lectured the students on the different ways to pronounce THE as well. She also looked at me like I was an Alien (gaijin perhaps) because I said "thuh" orange instead of "thee" orange. It is not something that I've thought about before, but started thinking about after she mentioned it.

[Otaku]

JTEs teach the 'the' vs 'thee' pronunciation quite regularly in my experience.

@JakeZ, both pronunications are correct, depending on how you say the 'O' in orange, if I'm not mistaken?

thee AH-range.
thuh OH-range.

[yesmikan]

Yeah, there's been a lot of subtle sounds that I never thought about until my JTE brought them up; how past tense "-ed" can sounds like "d," "t," or "id" for example.

"thuh orange" sounds forced to me, like you were overthinking it. Is that what you would say in normal conversation?

I sometimes overcorrect things like that when I'm doing my tape recorder duties. For example, when we were practicing the -ed past tense, I almost couldn't decide of "watched" ended with a "d" or "t" sound. The latter is the more natural one.

[Otaku]

Here's my breakdown of all grade 1's past tense verbs (D vs. T sounds):

D-SOUND:
called
changed
closed
enjoyed
listened
lived
loved
moved
opened
planned
played
studied
used
wanted

T-SOUND
cooked
crossed
finished
guessed
helped
liked
looked
talked
walked
watched

[yesmikan]

My JTE additionally broke them down into a third category:

-ID sound
wanted
waited


which really adds an additional syllable to the word.
If I remember correctly from linguistics, in Old/Middle English, all of the -ed past tense words had the additional syllable for -ed like wanted and waited. Orthography changes more conservatively than speech, so even though the pronunciation has changed over hundreds of years, the spelling hasn't.

[Pitarou]

Here's my breakdown of all grade 1's past tense verbs (D vs. T sounds):

...

There's a general rule, and it's actually very simple if you've studied a little phonics.

'd' and 't' are pretty much the same consonant. The only difference is that, when you say 'd' you use your voice, but when you say 't' you give your vocal cords a rest. We say that 'd' is 'voiced' and 't' is 'unvoiced'. Every consonant in English can be classed in this way: either voiced or unvoiced. And every vowel is, of course, voiced.

If the last sound of the word is voiced, paste tense 'd' is voiced:

rib --> ribbed (ribd)

But if the last sound of the word is unvoiced you use the unvoiced 't':

rip --> ripped (ript)

If the last sound is 'd' or 't' then we have to put a little gap in otherwise we wouldn't hear that there are two sounds. The gap is a vowel, which is voiced, so we have the voiced 'd' at the end:

MEXT --> MEXTed
degrade --> degraded

The same applies to the 'z' / 's' sound for the plural 's'. If the last sound is voiced, you say 'z':

moron --> morons (moronz)

But if it is unvoiced, you say 's':

MEXT --> MEXTs

And if it ends with 's' or 'z' we put in a gap and then the voiced sound:

jackass --> jackasses (jacakassez)

[Otaku]

Oh snap! A fellow phonics nerd! Hellz yeah!

I think I'm in love! @Pitarou -->