Debito/Racisim in Japan

[crustpunker]

For long timers here I am sure that most of you are aware of Debito Arudo and what he is all about. If not you can check out his page here:

http://www.debito.org/

I was wondering what other people think about his frequent crusades for "equal" treatment of foreigners here in Japan. Sometimes I think that what he is trying to do is quite helpful and beneficial but other times he seems to be really clinging to straws and raving on trivialities. In the case of racial profiling of foreign nationals here in Japan, general racisim etc I tend to think that where I am from (The U.S.) is much much much worse. Sure, the odd gaijin may get stopped here and harrased unfairly now and again or be told that they are not welcome in certain bars or other "public" establishments but man, try being a person of color driving a BMW around certain "white" areas in the states. A brother is BOUND to be harrased by the boys in blue. It is almost a given in certain areas of the states. There are certainly still hurdles and obstacles to overcome even today if you are a person of mixed race or a person of color in the U.S. I would say that certainly the Japanese in general hold very tightly to certain stereotypes about foreigners and this may contribute slightly to a somewhat negative image in certain cases or maybe a little racisim here and there but on the whole, I would argue that the Japanese are more likely to exhibit strong tendencies towards classism and be more "racist" in this regard to OTHER Japanese. any thoughts?

[jessen100]

relavant link.
be ready to feel disgusted.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/us/03pottsville.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

[Otaku]

I think you need to have someone way out on the edge to start tipping the scales in the right direction. Racism isn't is joke in the country and I think the only reason it isn't more of an issue is because it is done in killing-you-politely style.

I will say there is one thing I don't like about that guy, his website. It's hella messy! I'm going to otaku on outta here now...

[crustpunker]

relavant link.
be ready to feel disgusted.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/us/03pottsville.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

see, this is exactly what I am talking about. Racisim in Japan is nowhere NEAR this kind of horrifying. Although, there was a case a while back where a Japanese citizen was acquitted of murdering a foreigner in a bar
http://www.debito.org/?p=3534

This case in question though seems to be way more complicated though then the one you linked to. In the states random hate crime, violence and fear is commonplace. Most foreigners here that experience "racisim" here should think twice about getting all red in the face about "having to show ID to a cop" when he asks for it. Yes it is annoying and harrassment a lot of the time but jesus, compared to things like the article you linked to......come on!!

[crustpunker]

I think you need to have someone way out on the edge to start tipping the scales in the right direction. Racism isn't is joke in the country and I think the only reason it isn't more of an issue is because it is done in killing-you-politely style.

I will say there is one thing I don't like about that guy, his website. It's hella messy! I'm going to otaku on outta here now...

It is rather annoying when it happens but in my experience it is just that, annoying not life threatening...
Anyway, I agree with you that website is a god awful mess. Someone should help him out. That page looks like internet circa 1992.

[Otaku]

I'm playing devil's advocate just for argument sake...

Can you even compare Japan's culture with others? Is it as easy as saying Culture A is violently worse than Culture B therefore Culture B is on easy-street and no wrongs that need righted.

I think there is a big difference between a multi-cultural society whose peoples are basically forced to live with each other, and a hemogenous society for whatever reason has invited foreigners to come here and work. If you flip the script can you ever see a multi-cultured society inviting people to come to their country to work/live but then openly discriminate against them?

I'm not saying Japan isn't getting better about this type of thing, just that it has great room for improvement. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but take for instance credit cards. It is virtually impossible for a foreigner living in this country to acquire one, which makes things like using ETC units (those things installed in cars to allow you to pass through toll gates quickly) unaccesible.

[crustpunker]

I think though that as much as the society we live in here in Japan has traditionally been very homogeneous, being "international" carries a certain kind of staus here and has for a great long while. Also, if Japan wants to be major players in international business and relationships then I suppose they will have to think about how "international" they are as a nation within it's borders.

I hear about how hard it is for gaijin to get credit cards but I have never had a problem with it..In fact, I was basically forced to get one the other day so that makes 3 that I have now. I have noticed recently for whatever reason there seems to be a big push for a lot of retail outlets and clubs/gyms to push credit cards on customers. When I signed my son up for soccer classes, part of the application was that I had to actually apply and get a credit card for some weird reason. All three are in my name and not my wife. I wonder if it is because I have been married for 8 years and have never not had a job here? I dunno, I suppose I could get an ETC (Electronic Toll Collection) card if I wanted to but I don't drive enough on toll roads to warrent having one.
Does anyone else here on this site have a TASPO card? Don't get my started on that total sham...I hate having to carry that stupid thing around...

[crustpunker]

I think there is a big difference between a multi-cultural society whose peoples are basically forced to live with each other, and a hemogenous society for whatever reason has invited foreigners to come here and work. If you flip the script can you ever see a multi-cultured society inviting people to come to their country to work/live but then openly discriminate against them?

I would say that America does exactly this...
though I am not sure if "invite" would be the right word. More like...hmmmm, i dunno have a false prestense of open arms? I mean for chrissakes it was only in the late sixties/early seventies that African Americans were truly given FULL rights as American citizens. T'wasn't all that long ago...

[Otaku]

Crust, foreigners who are married to a Japanese person or have the backing of a Japanese person/company as a co-signer don't find it hard to get a credit card or rent an apartment.

However, it has been my experience it is nearly impossible to obtain simple things like a credit card being that I'm single and the dispatch company I work for doesn't back their employees.

As for an apartment, I had to pay 30,000 yen to a quasi-credit company to back me on my apartment.

I'm not saying other countries aren't dealing with race issues, but I will say I've experienced my fair share of discrimination over here in Japan, despite me having a clean and stable work history for over 5 years in Japan.

And, I have no experience with a TASPO card, sorry.

[crustpunker]

ah! I see! Yes, I suppose being married to a J-bird makes things like credit cards easier. As an experiment, I wonder if it would be possible to ascertain what credit card companies in the states policies are regarding issuing credit cards to non-American citizens with work visas? May be interesting to compare the two.
Renting a place does seem like a nightmare by all accounts. THAT is one area that there is rampant racisim when a gaijin tries to rent an apartment. You are really really kind of in a "luck of the draw" situation there aye? You may get someone who is fine with it or someone who will fully just say straight to ya "Sorry we don't rent to foreigners"
That is quite shameful.

[crustpunker]

Oh and Otaku, if you really want a credit card I"ll back you

[Otaku]

...a foreigner backing a foreigner in Japan.

Didn't I study something like that in math class? Something like, two negatives don't equal a positive...

[Paul]

Does anyone else here on this site have a TASPO card? Don't get my started on that total sham...I hate having to carry that stupid thing around

Yes I do. Did you know that technically you should also be able to charge it up like and Edy card as well?

I would suggest that racism here is more covert than anything else and some things that may come across as racist are in reality more based upon ignorance than anything else.

[crustpunker]

I didn' know that you could charge it up. That is kind of cool! I will try to remember that when I am cursing the innefectual system of mandatory card swiping on vending machines that sell tobacco products when i have left my card at home. Nothing is more irritating then going out to get a pack of smokes when i am in my pajamas (that don't have pockets) and I have left the muther f'ing thing at home..

[Paul]

One way to get you to stop smoking huh?

Do you have the other type of machine around your neighborhood? The one that takes a picture of your face and determines your age from it?

[regardo]

Do you have the other type of machine around your neighborhood? The one that takes a picture of your face and determines your age from it?

WHAT ???

[Otaku]

biometrics technology to buy cigs...yay!

[Paul]

Do you have the other type of machine around your neighborhood? The one that takes a picture of your face and determines your age from it?

WHAT ???

Also if your age can not be determined by the machine they also have the scanning equipment installed to check a drivers license. Also if the face on the license and person trying to purchase the cig's dont match, tough luck!

[untmdsprt]

but man, try being a person of color driving a BMW around certain "white" areas in the states.

This statement is what I hated most when I lived in the southern US. White, at least in a crayon box, is considered a color. Other colors also include red, and yellow. It's because of this politically correct bull that I kept to myself at my previous employer. There was no telling what would set an overly sensitive person off for them to run screaming to the HR dept to fire someone. These same people also wanted me to speak Chinese to a Korean janitor. I politely told them that neither of us knows Chinese. I did learn some Korean so I could speak with the man. Nicest guy ever!

With all of the Japanese people's faults, at least I don't have to worry about over sensitive people. Sure they could use a lesson in manners when dealing with non-Japanese, but the only problems I've had is renting an apartment. My boyfriend finally had to do it all, and became disgusted with his fellow countrymen. Only other ignorance I've had to deal with is when I speak Japanese to someone, they immediately run off to find an English speaker.

At my jr high school there is a black child, and other mixed Asian children, but they are all treated as the typical teenager. Everyone is brain dead, no common sense, and all having to deal with puberty. :)

[TENGU]

hasnt there been a case recently of police using taspo logs to help prosecute a criminal?_\

[TENGU]

I'm not saying Japan isn't getting better about this type of thing, just that it has great room for improvement. I don't know if this is a good example or not, but take for instance credit cards. It is virtually impossible for a foreigner living in this country to acquire one..

It is a cash based society, it is hard for many Japanese to get credit cards from banks. If you want one try your ISP or a supermarket backed one, they are far more lax about membership.

[Otaku]

First of all, untmdsprt, welcome to the forums! :)

Tengu, you are correct, Japan has traditionally been a cash-based society, and to some extent, still is. However, in your recent post you kinda proved that Japan is moving away from cash in that every cornerstore and their kid's lemonaide stand is offering a credit card these days. That aside, I personally have experienced rejection from many credit card applications ranging from banks, gas stations, to local grocery stores. And, I have plenty of other foreign friends who have experienced the same type of rejection. Now, am I saying rejection is the absolute? No. Simply that it's the norm.

As for Tengu's question about police using taspo logs to help prosecute a criminal, I found an old article that has since been removed from Japan Times but found a copy of the article on Debito's website. Tengu, are you reading David's site more than you're letting on?

Anyways, here's the article...

Tobacco maker group hands over taspo user data to prosecutors
Japan Today, Monday 27th July

TOKYO —

Link: http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/view/tobacco-maker-group-hands-over-taspo-user-data-to-prosecutors

The Tobacco Institute of Japan, the industry body of tobacco manufacturers, has turned over vending machine use logs on cigarette pack purchases by certain individual smokers to public prosecutors when they requested such information for investigative purposes, informed sources said Sunday. Such logs of ‘‘taspo’’ smart cards included records on when and at which vending machines the smokers bought cigarette packs, as well as their dates of birth, addresses and phone numbers, the sources said.

There has been a case in which the provided logs helped investigators find a person who had evaded some fines, the sources said.

The institute issues to smokers in Japan the taspo cards which entitle its holders to buy cigarette packs at vending machines. Taspo cards are issued only to adults aged 20 and over to block smoking by underage people.

This appears to be the first time that the use of taspo logs by criminal investigative authorities has become public knowledge. The use by such authorities of credit card-related information and mobile phone logs has been known.

The institute handed over taspo logs on a voluntary basis in response to prosecutors’ inquiries based on the Code of Criminal Procedure, but users of taspo cards normally do not assume that there is a possibility their taspo logs may be used in criminal investigations.

Some critics question the appropriateness of handing over such records to criminal investigators from the standpoint of the need to protect personal information, arguing that the institute should inform taspo holders beforehand that it may turn over their logs to third parties.

An institute official told Kyodo News, ‘‘We have kept track of purchases-related logs to check if taspo cards that were stolen or for which reports of loss have been filed may have been used illicitly, and we basically would not provide them to third parties.’’

‘‘But we cannot help turning over such logs as well as the addresses, names, dates of birth and contacts of cardholders to investigative authorities as necessary if the authorities request the logs in writing in line with the Code of Criminal Procedure,’’ the official said.

‘‘Since Article 23 of the rules for taspo cardholders stipulates that cardholders consent to the use of their information by the institute if the institute takes necessary measures to protect the information, we assume that the article also covers logs on their purchases,’’ the official added.

The institute has handed over to investigators such information as the dates of birth, addresses, phone numbers and dates of issuance of taspo cards of certain persons, as well as a list of when and where the cards were used, the sources said.

There have been cases where the institute turned over copies of applications filed by taspo applicants, alongside the copies of their identification cards such as drivers’ licenses which the applicants had attached to the applications.

Taspo logs could help their reviewers figure out what areas cardholders live in and what behavioral patterns they have.

Through the provision of the logs, the Saitama Public Prosecutors Office was able to identify a company where a taspo cardholder who has evaded a fine worked as the cardholder used a vending machine on the company’s premises repeatedly, the sources said.

[TENGU]

Tengu, you are correct, Japan has traditionally been a cash-based society, and to some extent, still is. However, in your recent post you kinda proved that Japan is moving away from cash in that every cornerstore and their kid's lemonaide stand is offering a credit card these days. That aside, I personally have experienced rejection from many credit card applications ranging from banks, gas stations, to local grocery stores. And, I have plenty of other foreign friends who have experienced the same type of rejection. Now, am I saying rejection is the absolute? No. Simply that it's the norm.

As for Tengu's question about police using taspo logs to help prosecute a criminal, I found an old article that has since been removed from Japan Times but found a copy of the article on Debito's website. Tengu, are you reading David's site more than you're letting on?

Thanks for deigning to validate my position, you are a veritable encyclopedia of all things Japanese. My recent post kinda proved nothing, merely stated that there are a slew of credit cards available, cash is still the mainstay of the economy. I have plenty of friends (including myself) who have been issued credit cards from both banks and alternative sources. There are certain criteria one must meet in order to be eligible for a credit card, before you even get into them, the issuing company will want to know if you can read and understand the T&C of the contract.

You can thank the 1000s of foreigners who leave with debts, unpaid tax, bills etc etc for adding an extra hurdle to your quest of being issued a card. It's hard to trust vagrants.


And seriously do you have any idea how pompous it sounds when you address everyone in response to a question directed at you, sheeesh, almost as bad as veering from the government sanctioned history lessons, tsk tsk (I know you did your thing out of earshot of a real teacher ).


I won't even mention the gratuitous ctrlvp, it's just bad etiquette.







追伸：　　who is david?

[Otaku]

David = debito

[untmdsprt]

the issuing company will want to know if you can read and understand the T&C of the contract.

Shouldn't that part be a given? Hell, I'd even take in my certificate of JLPT level 1 or 2 when I pass those just to prove I can read Japanese.

[TENGU]

the issuing company will want to know if you can read and understand the T&C of the contract.

Shouldn't that part be a given? Hell, I'd even take in my certificate of JLPT level 1 or 2 when I pass those just to prove I can read Japanese.

reading doesn't equal understanding, I'm sure 90% of cracker applications are written in English, 5%in mangled kana, 3% in passable normality and only 2 look native, as soon as they see romaji scrawled all over the place it gets binned.

Given? How many forms and applications did people fill in and stamp without understanding when they came to japan? I bet 90% of ALTs can't read their own tax returns.

[bum1]

Many Japanese can't read and understand their own tax returns.

[Paul]

Many Japanese can't read and understand their own tax returns.

I think that comes from the fact that not all Japanese even have to fill any out in the first place.

I will bet that not one teacher in any school where you work at has to do it, unless they have their own side business or income. Otherwise the business takes care of their taxes and just gives them a statement at or near the end of the fiscal year showing them what they earned and paid in taxes.