New Horizon - grade 3, unit 2 & 3 - seriously, you guys!

[regardo]

OK, i surrender!

what the mext is the difference between the target sentences in unit 2 and unit 3 in new horizon's 3rd book?

unit 2, p12/13:

[I live in Japan.]
I have lived in Japan for five years.
She has lived in Japan for fove years.

[I have played the piano for ten years.]
Have you played the piano for ten years?
[How long have you played the piano? - For ten years]

.


unit 3, p20/21:

Have you ever heard of a foster program?
-Yes, I have. / No, I have not. I have never heard of it.

I have just finished my work.
Have you finished your work yet?

is the only difference the bold and italic?
help me, my brain is eaten by myself!

[Otaku]

Everytime someone now asks about a grammar question, I start twitching because I have relapses to when I disected the textbooks. That was a very angry time in my life...

Those two particular chapters gave me a headache. Both of the grammar points fall within Present Perfect Verbs. My goal is to eventually get the grammar pages looking all snazzy, but for the time being, right under the main title of every grammar point, I have links taking you off-site to explain the grammar point a bit further. The site I have people going to for Present Perfect Verbs is http://www.english4today.com/englishgrammar/grammar/Tenses4.cfm

[regardo]

thanks!


...the only other difference i can spot is, that in unit 2 they are talking about a period of time, while in unit 3 it is a certain point in time.
but why would one need two units to convey that? I don't speak japanese. is this something special for japanese students???

[Otaku]

You are correct in the difference of the two units, but like I said before, under ENGLISH GRAMMAR RULES, those units fall under the same grammar point.

I don't know if those example sentences would fall into separate JAPANESE GRAMMAR RULES, but I do know they would be said differently in Japanese. Also, it has been my experience thus far in disecting the textbooks that this isn't the only example where English grammar rules have been cast aside to make the English grammar line-up with Japanese grammar points. I can already see arguments coming, but I'm not going to argue this point with anyone. This is my personal opinion after spending over 100 hours disecting all the textbooks.

Examples of what I'm talking about include, but not limited to: 5 W's, infinitives, SVOO, SVOC, there is/are, etc.

[Paul]

It's just one of the esoteric rules of grammar in English that only English Prof's and Japanese JHS's students learn.

[Shamisen]

Yes, and I think its due to the preoccupation with translating from Japanese (in their brains) to the English.

In Japanese I do think these sound different

ni nen kan Nihon ni sunDE IMAshita - I have lived in Japan 2 years / I lived in Japan for 2 years but I aint sayin' if I still do.
Shigoto wo OEMAshita - I have finished my work / I finished my work but I cant say for sure that its still finished now...
foster programs wa KIITA KOTO arimashita. - I have heard of "foster programs"



They may start from 3 different places, but after translating they end up at the same grammar form (well, very similar)

[Otaku]

I actually make some comments on some of the textbook pages on the site about this very point. In my opinion, while it's good to find similarities between the two languages, 1.) teaching grammar that scholars of the language argue about to this day (And, But, Because, etc), and 2.) bending grammar rules of the language you're studying to make them more similar to your L1 language is in my opinion a dangerous precedent to set.

[Paul]

Otaku in all seriousness here dont let this get to you, you are just going to end up walking down a path of futility and frustration that numerous others have gone through as well prior to your head butting this stuff.

Sushi makes a good point about the translating part as well....in New Horizon 3rd year Unit One at the end of the chapter, multi-plus 1 iirc, sorry I dont have the book in front of me now,......This is called a "yunomi" It is used when you drink tea.

Take a look at the examples at the bottom of the page. The students were to write a couple of sentences like the target sentence I wrote above but notice what happens when you take the word "happi" This is called a "happi" It is used when you go to a festival. Now then I dont know how many people here use an article of clothing when they go to a festival but I do know plenty of people that would wear one. So the sentence should read, It is worn when you go to a festival.

However in Japanese it is perfectly fine to say , it is used when you go to a festival.

While use may not be grammatically incorrect it is clumsy in my opinion and not common. I told the kids and teachers that worn would be more proper in English even though use was fine in Japanese.

[gsuiris]

My kids try to use are and have instead of the verb worn.

"You are bra?" (Yes, I was asked this - by a JHS 3rd year)
So, I reexplained the be verbs, during cleaning time.
"You have bra?"
To which I explained, again, the various meanings of have. I then told the kid to use "wear."

He doesn't remember it.

[Paul]

Maybe he was just trying to be fresh with you

He is a JHS 3rd year boy...