First English Word?

[Otaku]

What do you think the first English word students should learn? I would say it should be "English", afterall, it is the language which you are studying. Flippin' the script, one of the first words I learned in Japanese was 日本語. It just makes logic sense to me.

That being said, the 英語ノート doesn't ever teach the word "English" in either of these two books that I could find. Why? I think the answer is because these books are similarly structured the same way NEW HORIZON has setup their textbooks. In NEW HORIZON, the word "English" isn't even mentioned until page 18.

Math has a math textbook and science has a science textbook. So, why is it English has a NEW HORIZON textbook?

[Paul]

You know when I first read your post here, and please don't take any offense to this, but my first thought was like....what the heck? THEY KNOW what the word English means, why do they need to "learn" what the word means.

But then I have been thinking about this more and here are a few thoughts that I have about this.

I believe that the first thing the students need to have drilled, sorry maybe a poor choice of words there....., into their heads, is that English isn't just a subject about play and entertainment but a tool for communication and their future.

Now then that could be a bit heady for 5th and 6th graders or any kids for that matter, but the teachers NEED to reinforce the idea through constant reminders that English is to be spoken and used, not just something to be bottled up inside their heads as one more of the subjects that they "have" to learn in school.

The kids also need to be strangled....oopppss. strongly encouraged to MAKE MISTAKES! Mistakes need to be praised, particularly in spoken language practice, mistakes can be corrected but the kids need to learn to NOT FEAR being wrong. Being WRONG is what school is a part of. As we all know being wrong is a part of the learning practice. I often say this in just about every classroom that I first enter. "It's ok to be wrong or to make mistakes. That's what school is all about." If everyone was perfect all the time there would be no need for us teachers and I could go home. Which is where I would rather be, working on my vegetable garden or hoisting a freshly drawn brew. Well I dont say the last part but you all get the idea.

ES kids are better at picking this up. By the time they get to JHS it is culturally inbred that a switch turns on and they stop talking for fear of being WRONG. The kids who do well in English are the one's who managed to cut the switch.

I agree that the word English should be taught first, but not from the point of where it is in the textbook, but for teaching kids what English is for and HOW it will benefit them to learn it for practical use. Kids here are not given reasons why they are learning things. Oh some teachers may tell them something, but I have seen too many kids that DONT know why they are learning English in school. Plus I know plenty of parents that dont give a darn whether or not their kids do well in English or not. They dont care, so why should their kid care....which leads to other discipline problems but I digress.

[gsuiris]

I agree that the word English should be taught first, but not from the point of where it is in the textbook, but for teaching kids what English is for and HOW it will benefit them to learn it for practical use. Kids here are not given reasons why they are learning things. Oh some teachers may tell them something, but I have seen too many kids that DONT know why they are learning English in school.

This past year for the first day of class, the ichinensei teacher had the kids brainstorm why they have to learn English. We also told them all of the countries that speak English, plus the countries that use English as a mode of communication (i.e. India). It really got them thinking about why exactly they should study.

Not that they do, but I think it may have influenced some of them.

I think a good way to help kids feel like they can make mistakes is to make them yourself. If you can, speak to them in Japanese and make mistakes (on purpose or because you aren't high enough level). Or, make mistakes in English if you prefer. Make sure to laugh about it so the kids know it is OK. If I know the kid is brave then I'll correct them straight up outside of class. But if they are shy I will do it indirectly, for example by reasking the question to myself in proper English.

[bum1]

The first word students should learn is "Where"... followed shortly thereafter by "is the bathroom?"

"Which is where I would rather be, working on my vegetable garden or hoisting a freshly drawn brew"

Paul we have a lot in common actually.

[TENGU]

I believe that the first thing the students need to have drilled, sorry maybe a poor choice of words there....., into their heads, is that English isn't just a subject about play and entertainment but a tool for communication and their future.

I have to disagree with this. For most Japanese in Japan, English is a tool for getting into HS or further education, nothing more. It is mainly non Japanese living in Japan who convince themselves (and try to convince others) that English serves some higher purpose and if only the Japanese can learn to speak it everything will be better. How exactly will their future be altered by being able to speak English with some level of proficiency? I can't see Tomoko the bento maker having any need or use for English, similarly Kento the electrician, this is Japan, people need Japanese not English.

Now then that could be a bit heady for 5th and 6th graders or any kids for that matter, but the teachers NEED to reinforce the idea through constant reminders that English is to be spoken and used, not just something to be bottled up inside their heads as one more of the subjects that they "have" to learn in school.

I'd proffer that the teachers need to get through a set number of pages in a set time in order for the students to pass the subjects required to graduate. Whilst it might be a noble idea to expound the virtues of using language as verbal communication the simple fact remains that English in Japanese schools is is either edutainment for ES (soon to be wiped out) or for JHS dross rote, remembering grammar points and vocabulary. For the latter it is something to be kept bottled up because they have to learn it for tests. From the texts I have perused, communication is clearly not the focus of JHS English.

The kids also need to be strangled....oopppss. strongly encouraged to MAKE MISTAKES! Mistakes need to be praised, particularly in spoken language practice, mistakes can be corrected but the kids need to learn to NOT FEAR being wrong. Being WRONG is what school is a part of. As we all know being wrong is a part of the learning practice. I often say this in just about every classroom that I first enter. "It's ok to be wrong or to make mistakes. That's what school is all about." If everyone was perfect all the time there would be no need for us teachers and I could go home.

On whose authority is it acceptable to be wrong? It is far from acceptable to be wrong in Japanese culture, it is deemed better not to attempt something than to risk an endeavour which might result in failure. The society in which you were raised may have socialized you to treat failure as something that can be built upon, however, this is Japan and things are done very differently as I'm sure you are well aware. 100s of years of samurai rule helped forge this mindset, where everything is codified and and refined into well defined systems resulting in almost assured success. The phrase 一歩間違うとう is just as relevant today as it was 200 years ago. Teachers cannot be expected to tell students it is OK to do what they themselves most fear, it isn't going to happen.

ES kids are better at picking this up. By the time they get to JHS it is culturally inbred that a switch turns on and they stop talking for fear of being WRONG. The kids who do well in English are the one's who managed to cut the switch.

Culturally inbred? you mean they are maturing into people who will fit into the society in which they will most probably spend the rest of their lives? Why on earth would they want to stand out in a place that abhors individuality and praises conformity? I don't think any kid wants to be a pariah

Oh some teachers may tell them something, but I have seen too many kids that DONT know why they are learning English in school. Plus I know plenty of parents that dont give a darn whether or not their kids do well in English or not. They dont care, so why should their kid care....which leads to other discipline problems but I digress.

Why are they learning English? What is the purpose? Why should their parents care about something that is as good as useless to them? I'm sure math, Japanese, science etc would server their future far better. What would they do with half decent TOEIC English? Translator at 1000yen p.h? work in AEON? Trading company?



I don't understand people's obsession with the Japanese having to learn English. It's a waste of time and money.

[Paul]

I don't understand people's obsession with the Japanese having to learn English. It's a waste of time and money.

After reading your replies above here, quite a bit to say there I might add and much of it somehow comes across to me as if you stubbed your toe somewhere here along the way and well got turned off to the system as it is.

[TENGU]

I don't understand people's obsession with the Japanese having to learn English. It's a waste of time and money.

After reading your replies above here, quite a bit to say there I might add and much of it somehow comes across to me as if you stubbed your toe somewhere here along the way and well got turned off to the system as it is.

could you elucidate a little? something more than trite flippancy would be appreciated.

what is wrong with the system as it is?

[Paul]

I don't understand people's obsession with the Japanese having to learn English. It's a waste of time and money.

After reading your replies above here, quite a bit to say there I might add and much of it somehow comes across to me as if you stubbed your toe somewhere here along the way and well got turned off to the system as it is.

could you elucidate a little? something more than trite flippancy would be appreciated.

what is wrong with the system as it is?

I will, but you may have to wait until tomorrow or the day after, I am tied up with some other things here as well and can not give your posts the time they may need to illuminate everyone about what I meant here.

Have a nice evening.

[TENGU]

I can't wait


...my breath is baited.

[Paul]

I have to disagree with this. For most Japanese in Japan, English is a tool for getting into HS or further education, nothing more. It is mainly non Japanese living in Japan who convince themselves (and try to convince others) that English serves some higher purpose and if only the Japanese can learn to speak it everything will be better. How exactly will their future be altered by being able to speak English with some level of proficiency? I can't see Tomoko the bento maker having any need or use for English, similarly Kento the electrician, this is Japan, people need Japanese not English.

While this may be true for the most part even the government here has realized that it has pretty much failed in it's duty to educate it's citizens properly and feels embarrassed that the students now a days can not do any better in English than it's neighboring countries. There is pride at work here as well.

There is nothing wrong with trying to get people to realize that English is something more than just a tool for entering HS or Uni. I have found that many Japanese hold a high(er) opinion of others that are able to communicate in English, it is a status symbol in some ways of an ability to communicate with those that are not Japanese. Seeing as how many Japanese in my experience are naive and ignorant about many things that pertain to "gaikoku" and the people that come from that mysterious location.

Yet even Tomoko the bentou maker would probably be praised by her boss if let's say Tengu the bentou buyer came up to her and asked her in English what today's menu was and she took care of him. Tengu and Tomoko would probably both feel like they accomplished something unique for that day. And isnt that what life is partly about? The little things Tengu and not the big things.

I'd proffer that the teachers need to get through a set number of pages in a set time in order for the students to pass the subjects required to graduate. Whilst it might be a noble idea to expound the virtues of using language as verbal communication the simple fact remains that English in Japanese schools is is either edutainment for ES (soon to be wiped out) or for JHS dross rote, remembering grammar points and vocabulary. For the latter it is something to be kept bottled up because they have to learn it for tests. From the texts I have perused, communication is clearly not the focus of JHS English.

The quote you are replying to was specifically about ES, the teachers there have no need to get through any pages in any textbook currently anyway, so your comment here imo is a bit premature. Let's see what happens with Eigo Note before shooting the horse prior to the race.

One other thing I can say with a fair amount of confidence that I have probably been in the Japanese School System a lot longer than you have and I intimately know the focus and goals of the JTE's in their English classes. That is not our job and I do not hide the fact that I often have a distaste for some of the things that the kids have to study to pass their HS entrance tests, yet I understand the system well enough to know that there is nothing I can do nor say to actually change it so I stay focused on what I can change, and that is my students in my classes.

Many if not all that I have known for quite a number of years. I have watched literally thousands of kids grow up and I KNOW I have influenced a number of them to go into fields of employment that are directly related to using English in their daily lives.

That tells me I have done my job right. And do I go and think that I expect that from everyone, hell no. One thing about JHS education is experiencing things, and hopefully finding something in those experiences that they like or are interested enough in to make it a part of their daily lives.

I am both an optimist and realist, I always look for the next day to start but realize that it isn't always going to be sunny!

[Paul]

On whose authority is it acceptable to be wrong? It is far from acceptable to be wrong in Japanese culture, it is deemed better not to attempt something than to risk an endeavour which might result in failure.

Mine thank you very much and countless numbers of other teachers that understand the idea behind what I am and others are talking about. Think about this for a moment, I for one think you are confusing things about Japanese culture and the life of a teenager JHS student. Tell me just how much of a stigma is attached on a kid for not "always" getting 100% on their tests? Hey there are "wrong". But it is you that sit here and say that it is far from acceptable......yet that isnt true either now is it?

Taken in the context of the classroom it is very much ok to be wrong. School is the place to make mistakes and learn from them. I and any number of other teachers make that comment often to our students often and it helps the kids over time to relax. In that context and that is the context that I was discussing, it is actually very healthy and educating for students to know that making a mistake is not the end of the world.

The rest of your quote does not pertain to the point I made.

[bum1]

TENGU are you a devil's advocate or do you really believe the stuff you are saying? Your philosophy when applied to other subjects would equate to the following.

Math- Teach the formulas, numbers and rules, but not how to apply it to life in any way.

Science- Teach the periodic table, the laws of nature and biology ect, but not the scientific method or the process of discovery and experimentation.

Japanese- Teach Kanji and grammar but not creative writing or speech.

P.E.- Do push ups and sit ups and laps all day because it's just body conditioning.

History- Memorize the dates and names but don't learn the lessons from their stories. Their successes and mistakes... What we should fail to repeat and what we should admire.

If you're not trolling and you really believe in this kind of teaching philosophy please explain to us how it will benifit the students.

Also... Japanese culture is huge and much different for me than what you portray it to be. Making generalizations about Japanese culture is dangerous. How long have you lived here? Are you friends with any Japanese people? If you lived my life with the Japanese that I call family and friends you would never say things like "It is far from acceptable to be wrong in Japanese culture, it is deemed better not to attempt something than to risk an endeavour which might result in failure."

[TENGU]

First, should I take your tag questions as a request for validation of your opinions or as little condescending snipes?

While this may be true for the most part even the government here has realized that it has pretty much failed in it's duty to educate it's citizens properly and feels embarrassed that the students now a days can not do any better in English than it's neighboring countries. There is pride at work here as well.

And this edification resulted in 英語ノート and New Horizon, they're certainly onto a winner with those publications.

There is nothing wrong with trying to get people to realize that English is something more than just a tool for entering HS or Uni. I have found that many Japanese hold a high(er) opinion of others that are able to communicate in English, it is a status symbol in some ways of an ability to communicate with those that are not Japanese. Seeing as how many Japanese in my experience are naive and ignorant about many things that pertain to "gaikoku" and the people that come from that mysterious location.

Yet even Tomoko the bentou maker would probably be praised by her boss if let's say Tengu the bentou buyer came up to her and asked her in English what today's menu was and she took care of him. Tengu and Tomoko would probably both feel like they accomplished something unique for that day. And isnt that what life is partly about? The little things Tengu and not the big things.

Sure, you can call a spade whatever you like but at the end of the day it will still be used for digging holes. The kids don't get grades for being able to communicate, they get them for remembering and repeating.

Are you basing this 'status symbol' malarkey on experiences in Okinawa? Seriously, if people were revered for their English communication abilities don't you think there would be droves of people speaking. Okinawa is not really representative of Japan as a whole is it now?

I can't imagine any bento shop owner being overtly impressed by anything their underlings did, I can, however, imagine said underlings not wanting to embarrass their superior by showing a skill that they don't possess.

Now let's take it a little further, if Tengu the bento buyer　is in Japan, I'd say rather than sticking with picture point menus, she should learn the language and order in Japanese, instead of being a typical gaijin from gaijinland and drumming forth in whatever gaijingo spouts forth from their lips, a little effort on their part would facilitate better communication, maybe if they could communicate in the national language they could erode some of the naivety and dispel more of the ignorance of the gaikokuland instead of perpetuating the mysterious ignorance of the people who come from it.

Life is about different things for different people, I think a bento making employee would be more concerned with big things like making ends meet rather than parsing a few words of English for their boss.

The quote you are replying to was specifically about ES, the teachers there have no need to get through any pages in any textbook currently anyway, so your comment here imo is a bit premature. Let's see what happens with Eigo Note before shooting the horse prior to the race.

Ok they have to get through a set number of hours per year. BTW grades 1-4 will have their 総合　time cut year on year, in fact it won't even be Engrish (not that they ever had it, ya know, 国際理解　and 外国活動 is often dumped as Engrish onto the oft ill-equipped and inexperienced ALT)any more, they can still use English under the proviso that, 'the English used should not be built upon or in anyway facilitate and increase in ability' it's going to be more of a 道徳　cum 問題解決 type affair with a gaijin there for the international appeal. It will however be a lazy ALT's wet dream, fewer hours, less responsibility, simply standing at the side like a muppet and being called to perform once every so often.

One other thing I can say with a fair amount of confidence that I have probably been in the Japanese School System a lot longer than you have and I intimately know the focus and goals of the JTE's in their English classes. That is not our job and I do not hide the fact that I often have a distaste for some of the things that the kids have to study to pass their HS entrance tests, yet I understand the system well enough to know that there is nothing I can do nor say to actually change it so I stay focused on what I can change, and that is my students in my classes.

Well MR. Rappa, one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that they are NOT YOUR students, as you are not the teacher (correct me if I'm mistaken, you don't hold a teaching licence do you?) You might well know the focus and goals of the JTEs that you have worked with but how much influence do you think you have over them? You openly disagree with what the real teachers are teaching them (I hope you don't undermine the teacher in front of their students), if you know the system so well you should realize that you can influence and change things in your small section of the Engrish world, but if you pound on in English with the

[TENGU]

Mine thank you very much and countless numbers of other teachers that understand the idea behind what I am and others are talking about. Think about this for a moment, I for one think you are confusing things about Japanese culture and the life of a teenager JHS student. Tell me just how much of a stigma is attached on a kid for not "always" getting 100% on their tests? Hey there are "wrong". But it is you that sit here and say that it is far from acceptable......yet that isnt true either now is it?

Taken in the context of the classroom it is very much ok to be wrong. School is the place to make mistakes and learn from them. I and any number of other teachers make that comment often to our students often and it helps the kids over time to relax. In that context and that is the context that I was discussing, it is actually very healthy and educating for students to know that making a mistake is not the end of the world.

JHS students are somehow detached from Japanese culture? I guess all the years of rote and juku preparing for Japan Inc was a mirage. Countless numbers of teachers? with so many following your way of thinking there must be an imminent revolution in education.

Hmmm, stigma attached to failing, hmm, whilst in another post you mentioned that parents don't care about their child's performance in English (as it has no value to them) there are herds of parents who demand nothing but the highest scores from their children. Such unrealistic pressures led to a slew of PSAs warning parents of how negative an effect this behaviour can have on children (young adults if you want to be all let's treat em like gaijins back home). Pressure from teachers to get up to speed, pressure from peers to keep up or not let the group down, pressure from parents, pressure from themselves to fit in, do you find all these factors conducive to feeling ok about making mistakes? How do you handle a student who keeps trying but fails most of the time? do you know what effect that has outside the class you are assisting in?

It might be fine and dandy to openly make mistakes in the culture you were raised in but as I stated earlier it's different here. I hope they don't graduate thinking it's ok to make mistakes, I don't think it would serve them well in the workplace. Unless they all end up in these wonderful English related professions you speak of.

The rest of your quote does not pertain to the point I made.

So I can only assume you added this as some kind of cheap jab?

[TENGU]

If you're not trolling and you really believe in this kind of teaching philosophy please explain to us how it will benifit the students.

Also... Japanese culture is huge and much different for me than what you portray it to be. Making generalizations about Japanese culture is dangerous. How long have you lived here? Are you friends with any Japanese people? If you lived my life with the Japanese that I call family and friends you would never say things like "It is far from acceptable to be wrong in Japanese culture, it is deemed better not to attempt something than to risk an endeavour which might result in failure."

Benefits them in that it prepares them for Japan Inc.

[SARCASM]I've been here 6 months and have no Japanese friends at all,[/SARCASM] ditched (some of) them after hearing some of their opinions on life and the world in general. Does that make you feel better?

天狗になってるとそのうち痛い目をみるぞ。


edited for sarcastic clarity.

[Paul]

Well MR. Rappa, one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that they are NOT YOUR students, as you are not the teacher (correct me if I'm mistaken, you don't hold a teaching licence do you?) You might well know the focus and goals of the JTEs that you have worked with but how much influence do you think you have over them? You openly disagree with what the real teachers are teaching them (I hope you don't undermine the teacher in front of their students), if you know the system so well you should realize that you can influence and change things in your small section of the Engrish world, but if you pound on in English with the

Prove to me they are not my students since you think you know so much about me? There is more to being a teacher than a piece of paper that says you are licensed or otherwise.

How much influence, well let me see......it isn't influence but mutual respect, big difference.

You talk about me tossing jabs here but I am calling bs on you for your condescending replies, if you can't take someone disagreeing with your opinions I would suggest getting the chip off of your shoulder.

[TENGU]

Well MR. Rappa, one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that they are NOT YOUR students, as you are not the teacher (correct me if I'm mistaken, you don't hold a teaching licence do you?) You might well know the focus and goals of the JTEs that you have worked with but how much influence do you think you have over them? You openly disagree with what the real teachers are teaching them (I hope you don't undermine the teacher in front of their students), if you know the system so well you should realize that you can influence and change things in your small section of the Engrish world, but if you pound on in English with the

Prove to me they are not my students since you think you know so much about me? There is more to being a teacher than a piece of paper that says you are licensed or otherwise.

How much influence, well let me see......it isn't influence but mutual respect, big difference.

You talk about me tossing jabs here but I am calling bs on you for your condescending replies, if you can't take someone disagreeing with your opinions I would suggest getting the chip off of your shoulder.

Didn't you come to this country as some kind of electrical engineer and ended up doing this when the bubble burst? sorry if I'm mistaking you for someone else. I'd suggest that real teachers wanted to be teachers and spent years training to become such, not just picking it up as they went along when what they wanted didn't work out as many ALTs do. So whilst under a general term you could be considered a teacher (albeit and assistant language/English one) in the job description and thus by default you would have students. Seeing them 35 hours a year or less and spending 25? mins of a class interacting with them doesn't constitute being a teacher. Sorry if you don't like my opinion, but I'm entitled to it.


That's great, how far does that mutual respect extend?


I gave an opinion, you didn't like it and thought it necessary to add petty jabs,

自分でまいた種だろう.

[Otaku]

It's interesting to see how this thread is turning out...

I do think, however, a couple comments thus far are dangerously close to mudslinging and would request that people keep comments directed at the arguments and not at the individual.

Also, there will be absolutely no trolling in this forum. Sarcasm isn't very transparent via the internet. The reason I say this is because I'm not convinced Tengu has been in Japan for only 6 months. Unless you did some heavily studying on Japanese culture and the English education system here, your knowledge of the subject would suggest you've been here a little while longer. If I'm wrong, please accept my apologies. If I'm not wrong, please refrain from volunteering false information about yourself.

Now, onto the action...

I think this thread is close to turning into two ships passing in the night. Paul's points have to do with his opinions about how the education system 'should be', while Tengu is talking about 'status quo'. What IS has nothing to do with what SHOULD BE.

I think Tengu is pretty spot-on with his description of the current education system:
1.) JHS English is basically taught based upon the information that is in the HS entrance exams.
2.) In JHS/HS, English isn't taught for the purpose of communication but rather mathlish English-like grammatic problems.
3.) A lot of JTEs are caught in a catch-22 situation, where they don't feel comfortable promoting a mistake-friendly classroom environment when they themselves are trying to achieve perfection.

But, I think there is a bit more below the surface...

1. Yes, the present status quo is to teach to the tests, but that doesn't preclude other people offering other teaching strategies, like Paul, who suggested: 1.) more emphasis on communication, 2.) teachers needing to better drill into the students' heads that English is not just a subject, and 3.) while everyone strives to be perfect, perfection isn't achieved without a long road of practice and making mistakes. Personally, I welcome suggestions because they are usually critiques on how to make something better. Whether the suggestions bring about change is another story, but that shouldn't mean people shouldn't offer opinions.

2. While Japan's JHS/HS does seem to focus heavily on grammar, the Asian EFL environments tend to default and teach English based upon what is on the tests. That's fact. Is that the optimal way to go about teaching English? Well, that's another argument altogether... However, if you look at the Asian countries' EFL education and juxtapose that to their European EFL counterparts, you'll see that in Europe EFL education not only emphasizes grammar but focus more heavily on communication as well. Where do I get this information? An English professor down in Osaka recently wrote a research paper about this very thing. Englipedia is hosting his paper. Anyways, what I'm saying is, in EFL environments that rarely use the language outside the classroom, grammar is heavily weighted. But, in EFL environments that a.) tend use English more in the everyday culture, b.) communicate more with the world around them, and c.) have less of a homogenous society which usually is a good indication that only one language is commonly spoken, more emphasis is placed on communication. So, while status quo in Japan does teach to the tests, I think the point Paul was making is that just because it IS doesn't mean it SHOULD BE, especially as the world is being more and more connected and English is undisputedly becoming the world's unofficial language. Who cares if you can put together a perfect grammatical sentence if you can't hold a conversation in today's English-speaking global community?

Yeah, mistakes aren't entirely encouraged in the borg-like school environment here in Japan, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be. English has nothing to do with the Japanese language or culture, and as such, should not lay down just because it is being taught in-country. In the English classroom, I will argue till I'm blue in the face that it is okay to make mistakes. Actually, let me back up, in ANY LEARNING ENVIRONMENT, mistakes are okay. This is Teaching 101 philosophy. Furthermore, I would dare argue that in an learning environment where students are pressured to the point where they don't do or say anything until they can do so in a perfect manner, that this isn't a "learning environment", or rather, a "healthy" learning environment. I would take my argument one step further to even say spoon-fed education is not education, rather conditioning. I think true education is giving students the tools, not information, they need to discover the world around them. Let the students formulate their own opinions.

I'm straying from the point. Basically, mistakes are good in a positive learning environment because it helps the student learn faster. Hell, I hate to keep pushing the site, but another article on the site talks about mistakes being good.

3. I, too, have experienced JTEs who aren't confident in the English ability, and the students do suffer because of this type of attitude. However, I think the following statement Tengu made is incorrect: "Teachers cannot be expected to tell students it is OK to do what they themselves most fear, it isn't going to happen." I think what really needs to happen is a mindshift in teachers way of thinking. Like Paul said, it's okay to make mistakes. Personally, I make mistakes in the classroom all the time, in English AND Japanese. I tell my students that the only difference between me and them is I know how to correct myself when I make a mistake. I think a lot of teachers need to suck it up, mature a bit, divorce themselves from the mistakes-are-bad mentality and accept the simple fact that they are human and they are going to make mistakes.

Furthermore, there is no difference between the old Japanese samurai way of learning and a culture that embraces mistakes as something to build upon; both ways entail mistakes. The only difference is how those mistakes are interpreted. In the samurai world, mistakes are bad. In an English environment, mistakes are good. Both ways achieve the goal. But, I would argue the E-environment way is less stressful. Additionally, I would argue there is no place for the samurai way in an English classroom. There is nothing samurai-ish about the English language or how it should be taught, and anybody who does argue that there is guilty of misnomer-ing.

Lastly, the following quote by Tengu was obviously posted to elicit responses: "I don't understand people's obsession with the Japanese having to learn English. It's a waste of time and money." I believe Tengu meant to define "people" as "ALTs". Everyone and their mother knows that average ALT is not obsessed with their students learning English; they are merely in Japan for the onsens and senbeis. It is the JAPANESE who are obsessed with trying to learn English. I don't know anywhere else in the world where you can get paid anywhere from 5,000-10,000 yen an hour to teach elementary school or communicative level English. That being said, Tengu is correct...everything done in Japan in regards to the English education up to now has pretty much been "a waste of time and money".

On a final note, what I say next is not meant to be a personal attack but rather constructive criticism. I think it's rather presumptuous to question someone's credentials and to ask them, "On whose authority is it acceptable to be wrong?" I would dare argue someone who has been working in the ALT field longer than the JET Program has been in existence has earned some credentials. Does Paul a masters or PhD? Does he have a teaching license? Has he written any books about Japan's EFL education? Who knows...and honestly...who cares. I think experience is equally valuable and turning-up a nose and trying to cast aside an experienced person's opinions is probably not the smartest thing to do...especially since I have the sneaky suspicion you, Tengu, are posting to elicit responses rather than to promote positive discourse. If I have misjudged you, please accept my apologies.

On a final final note, if you are going to include kanji in your posts, please include the reading for the kanji so others may follow along, Otherwise, you may come off as being condescending and trying to talk above peoples heads.

[bum1]

I am a lucky teacher. I have a different title and a different responsibility than ALTs. It's just a title, but it matters a lot to some people. They changed the title for us in my city to NET because too many teachers were behaving like assistants. The school board expressed that we were to behave as equals to the other teachers in our schools and be as involved as possible with all aspects of our schools. Sometimes I teach classes alone. I'm pretty sure we get paid more than most ALTs. Most importantly I am treated like a teacher. This is just my situation. My position is similar to that of the music teacher in that I am responsible for teaching all of the students from all of the grades. Feeling like the students are yours is a byproduct of liking your job and genuinely caring about them. I like my job. I completely understand feeling differently if you don't like your job.

[bum1]

Tengu, does it really prepare them for Japan Inc or prepare them to become a part of failing business models? Japan Inc is changing man. Look at the successful companies and check out their business models. (See Panasonic and Nindendo.. ect.)

[Paul]

Now let's take it a little further, if Tengu the bento buyer　is in Japan, I'd say rather than sticking with picture point menus, she should learn the language and order in Japanese, instead of being a typical gaijin from gaijinland and drumming forth in whatever gaijingo spouts forth from their lips, a little effort on their part would facilitate better communication, maybe if they could communicate in the national language they could erode some of the naivety and dispel more of the ignorance of the gaikokuland instead of perpetuating the mysterious ignorance of the people who come from it.

Why? Why should Tengu learn Japanese if they dont want to. Key point there. Of course learning some would be helpful but that wasnt what I was talking about and you know that. I gave you an example in reply to your comment about where English could come in handy.

I get the impression from reading your posts that you are the type of person that will reply to a Japanese person in Japanese even if they address you in English right? Your interest really isnt in facilitating communication but being like your namesake and handle instead right?

[jessen100]

(not neccesarily related since i havent read most of these posts)...but

when i studied japanese in the states, in most cases addressing a japanese person in japanese would often get you a response in english, unless in an enviornment based upon studying japanese. Even the head teacher of the japanese department at my college would often respond back to you in english. (literally unless you spoke perfectly she wouldnt respond in Japanese)

on another unralated note, the song they have on repeat at my school atm.... i think its going to make me throw up.

[crustpunker]

Just a quick note about all of the "If you don't have a teaching degree you are not a teacher" diatribe.

Does every well know Hollywood actor graduate from an acting academy with a masters degree in performing arts before they can be considered a top star? Or does their work tend to speak louder than an irrelevant (albeit expensive) slip of paper?

I am aware that teaching is another thing entirely but there are lessons to be learned.
Be prepared for your classes, know the needs of your students and for what you may lack in "classical" training, often times you are able to come up with fresh and creative ideas that are more relevant to the situation you are currently in rather than trying to apply institutional (Western) techniques that may fall flat on their face in a place as unique as Japan and the Japanese school system.

I have yet to meet a single person with a masters degree in "teaching esl/efl to Japanese students IN Japan"
do let me know if there is a course I can sign up for and I would gladly go back to school.

[amanojyaku]

I am a lucky teacher. I have a different title and a different responsibility than ALTs. It's just a title, but it matters a lot to some people. They changed the title for us in my city to NET because too many teachers were behaving like assistants. The school board expressed that we were to behave as equals to the other teachers in our schools and be as involved as possible with all aspects of our schools. Sometimes I teach classes alone. I'm pretty sure we get paid more than most ALTs. Most importantly I am treated like a teacher. This is just my situation. My position is similar to that of the music teacher in that I am responsible for teaching all of the students from all of the grades. Feeling like the students are yours is a byproduct of liking your job and genuinely caring about them. I like my job. I completely understand feeling differently if you don't like your job.

So you're not an ALT, how does this apply to the conversation about ALTs? Anyways........


Unless you have a teaching license you are not legally permitted to teach alone. If anything bad happens in your classroom it will be on your head, are you prepared for a fire? earthquake? medical emergency? 不審者attack? etc etc? Have you received the appropriate training to deal with these situations, I'm not talking about common sense here, but the proper approved training. Are you aware of the basic procedures of what to do and who to contact and in which order? If not there will be a big diagram on the staff room wall which explains it for you.

Be it on your own head if anything bad happens in your class, whilst the school would be wrong for allowing you to do something you are not certified to do, it would ultimately be you that paid the price.

Tengu, does it really prepare them for Japan Inc or prepare them to become a part of failing business models? Japan Inc is changing man. Look at the successful companies and check out their business models. (See Panasonic and Nindendo.. ect.)

Way to make a point,

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/japan/article5723942.ece

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/6752/charts?countrycode=jp&intflavor=advanced

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/7974/charts?CountryCode=jp

[Otaku]

YES! I actually replied quick enough before Amanojyaku could delete his post!

Are you prepared for a fire? earthquake? kanji kanji kanji? medical emergency?

Okay, I'm not quite sure FIRST ENGLISH WORDS and school drills go into the same category. Oh well...

I think my head would explode if I was 'properly trained' in the Japanese way of clearing a school.

Has anyone seen the type of practice that is done for these emergencies? [overdramatic]I'm glad the first time I heard the fire alarm go off at school it wasn't for real because I was on the ground laughing so hard they almost had to take me to the hospital.[/overdramatic] The alarm went off and all the students went to the entrance of the school.

However, instead of exiting out of the front of the school, all the students grabbed their outdoor shoes, made a 180 and shuffled all the way back through the school to the rear entrance. I was laughing so hard cuz' I could just imagine the fire going "dozo" and waiting until the kids exited the building.

[TENGU]

<snippety>

Now, onto the action...

I think this thread is close to turning into two ships passing in the night. Paul's points have to do with his opinions about how the education system 'should be', while Tengu is talking about 'status quo'. What IS has nothing to do with what SHOULD BE.


I think Tengu is pretty spot-on with his description of the current education system:
1.) JHS English is basically taught based upon the information that is in the HS entrance exams.
2.) In JHS/HS, English isn't taught for the purpose of communication but rather mathlish English-like grammatic problems.
3.) A lot of JTEs are caught in a catch-22 situation, where they don't feel comfortable promoting a mistake-friendly classroom environment when they themselves are trying to achieve perfection.

I concur.

But, I think there is a bit more below the surface...

1. Yes, the present status quo is to teach to the tests, but that doesn't preclude other people offering other teaching strategies, like Paul, who suggested: 1.) more emphasis on communication, 2.) teachers needing to better drill into the students' heads that English is not just a subject, and 3.) while everyone strives to be perfect, perfection isn't achieved without a long road of practice and making mistakes. Personally, I welcome suggestions because they are usually critiques on how to make something better. Whether the suggestions bring about change is another story, but that shouldn't mean people shouldn't offer opinions.

I don't see anything wrong with this, it's when people come along saying it 'should be' and it 'shouldn't be' that problems arise, anyone who has lived in Japan for any length of time must surely realise these words are very dangerous, especially when coming from an individual. I think I was describing the current situation and with the current goals set in place for English education the system works.

2. While Japan's JHS/HS does seem to focus heavily on grammar, the Asian EFL environments tend to default and teach English based upon what is on the tests. That's fact. Is that the optimal way to go about teaching English? Well, that's another argument altogether... However, if you look at the Asian countries' EFL education and juxtapose that to their European EFL counterparts, you'll see that in Europe EFL education not only emphasizes grammar but focus more heavily on communication as well. Where do I get this information? An English professor down in Osaka recently wrote a research paper about this very thing. Englipedia is hosting his paper. Anyways, what I'm saying is, in EFL environments that rarely use the language outside the classroom, grammar is heavily weighted. But, in EFL environments that a.) tend use English more in the everyday culture, b.) communicate more with the world around them, and c.) have less of a homogenous society which usually is a good indication that only one language is commonly spoken, more emphasis is placed on communication. So, while status quo in Japan does teach to the tests, I think the point Paul was making is that just because it IS doesn't mean it SHOULD BE, especially as the world is being more and more connected and English is undisputedly becoming the world's unofficial language. Who cares if you can put together a perfect grammatical sentence if you can't hold a conversation in today's English-speaking global community?

While passing tests is the sole purpose of language education the teaching method will cater only to that end. English as a tool for communication is not happening for many reasons. As you rightly say, Japan is a very homogeneous and in many people's opinion a quite openly xenophobic island society. For a country so proud of its homogeneity and cultural uniqueness, don't you find it interesting how many Japanese have so much difficulty in communicating between themselves? Whether it be the intrinsic 曖昧（あいまい）-ness of the language, the hacking out of kanji on palms and thighs or the burden of cultural expectation such as 本音　（ほんね）　and 建前　（たてまえ） there is a real lack of face to face communication. Living in such an environment I wouldn't expect the powers that be to think about communication when they devise a program of study for passing English tests. The whole ideal of education in Japan couldn't be further removed that some European countries.

I have fluent English speaking friends from several European countries and from their stories I'd say their English education was much more severe in terms of grammar than the Japanese system, however oral and communicative abilities featured just as heavily.

Have a poke around here

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2009/05/176_17601.html

http://www.edu.fi/english/SubPage.asp?path=500,4699

Now that's a seriously amazing education system, it makes here look like a Dickensian nightmare.

Yeah, mistakes aren't entirely encouraged in the borg-like school environment here in Japan, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be. English has nothing to do with the Japanese language or culture, and as such, should not lay down just because it is being taught in-country. In the English classroom, I will argue till I'm blue in the face that it is okay to make mistakes. Actually, let me back up, in ANY LEARNING ENVIRONMENT, mistakes are okay. This is Teaching 101 philosophy. Furthermore, I would dare argue that in an learning environment where students are pressured to the point where they don't do or say anything until they can do so in a perfect manner, that this isn't a "learning environment", or rather, a "healthy" learning environment. I would take my argument one step further to even say spoon-fed education is not education, rather conditioning. I think true education is giving students the tools, not information, they need to discover the world around them. Let the students formulate their own opinions.

exactly, conditioning for Japan Inc, seriously, that simple. Mistakes and learning to think independently through those mistakes is not conducive to churning out good citizens, which is exactly what the government has wanted for years and the teachers have been mandated to do. Make no mistake, I am fully aware of what makes a better learning environment and when I taught I utilized every trick I have to make my students better people, but you would never hear me say "should", "better" or the like, a simple communicative way of teaching what needs to be taught.

3. I, too, have experienced JTEs who aren't confident in the English ability, and the students do suffer because of this type of attitude. However, I think the following statement Tengu made is incorrect: "Teachers cannot be expected to tell students it is OK to do what they themselves most fear, it isn't going to happen." I think what really needs to happen is a mind shift in teachers way of thinking. Like Paul said, it's okay to make mistakes. Personally, I make mistakes in the classroom all the time, in English AND Japanese. I tell my students that the only difference between me and them is I know how to correct myself when I make a mistake. I think a lot of teachers need to suck it up, mature a bit, divorce themselves from the mistakes-are-bad mentality and accept the simple fact that they are human and they are going to make mistakes.

From my culture's point of view it is ok to make mistakes, I was speaking from a current Japanese way of thinking in the school system. If you reverse your last sentence you can see how problematic it is.

I think a lot of ALTs need to suck it up, mature a bit, divorce themselves from the mistakes-are-acceptable back home mentality and accept the simple fact that they are in Japan and they are going to have to fit in.

Furthermore, there is no difference between the old Japanese samurai way of learning and a culture that embraces mistakes as something to build upon; both ways entail mistakes. The only difference is how those mistakes are interpreted. In the samurai world, mistakes are bad. In an English environment, mistakes are good. Both ways achieve the goal. But, I would argue the E-environment way is less stressful. Additionally, I would argue there is no place for the samurai way in an English classroom. There is nothing samurai-ish about the English language or how it should be taught, and anybody who does argue that there is guilty of misnomer-ing.

I think you will find that strict adherence to rules and form are equally if not more important than the goal. Have you ever done 茶道 (さどう）? whew what a palarva!

Lastly, the following quote by Tengu was obviously posted to elicit responses: "I don't understand people's obsession with the Japanese having to learn English. It's a waste of time and money." I believe Tengu meant to define "people" as "ALTs". Everyone and their mother knows that average ALT is not obsessed with their students learning English; they are merely in Japan for the onsens and senbeis. It is the JAPANESE who are obsessed with trying to learn English. I don't know anywhere else in the world where you can get paid anywhere from 5,000-10,000 yen an hour to teach elementary school or communicative level English. That being said, Tengu is correct...everything done in Japan in regards to the English education up to now has pretty much been "a waste of time and money".

I was referring to people who are obsessed with the Japanese (as a whole) being forced to speak English. It is a waste of time and money forcing people to do something they don't want, isn't there something about a horse and water. Seriously, how about English as an chosen subject, maybe the results would be better.

How many ALTs do you know that are taking home 800,000 a month for 40 hour weeks?

On a final note, what I say next is not meant to be a personal attack but rather constructive criticism. I think it's rather presumptuous to question someone's credentials and to ask them, "On whose authority is it acceptable to be wrong?" I would dare argue someone who has been working in the ALT field longer than the JET Program has been in existence has earned some credentials. Does Paul a masters or PhD? Does he have a teaching license? Has he written any books about Japan's EFL education? Who knows...and honestly...who cares. I think experience is equally valuable and turning-up a nose and trying to cast aside an experienced person's opinions is probably not the smartest thing to do...especially since I have the sneaky suspicion you, Tengu, are posting to elicit responses rather than to promote positive discourse. If I have misjudged you, please accept my apologies.

Similarly I think it is rather pompous to be telling people how things 'should be' without thinking about the consequences of such actions. It is all good and well to have an opinion, but forcing it on others is quite another thing.

I accept your apologies. If I wanted responses it would be easier to troll GP or some other such inane place.

On a final final note, if you are going to include kanji in your posts, please include the reading for the kanji so others may follow along, Otherwise, you may come off as being condescending and trying to talk above peoples heads.

You're only really allowed one real final note, but.....

Any of the kanji I use can be just as readily looked up as is. But if you insist I will slap hiragana after them. I'd add a link to a good dictionary if only my sig would display.

[TENGU]

Why? Why should Tengu learn Japanese if they dont want to. Key point there. Of course learning some would be helpful but that wasnt what I was talking about and you know that. I gave you an example in reply to your comment about where English could come in handy.

I get the impression from reading your posts that you are the type of person that will reply to a Japanese person in Japanese even if they address you in English right? Your interest really isnt in facilitating communication but being like your namesake and handle instead right?

If you want to carry on in this manner please start a new thread in the correct forum, this is getting way off topic.

Thanks

[Paul]

Why? Why should Tengu learn Japanese if they dont want to. Key point there. Of course learning some would be helpful but that wasnt what I was talking about and you know that. I gave you an example in reply to your comment about where English could come in handy.

I get the impression from reading your posts that you are the type of person that will reply to a Japanese person in Japanese even if they address you in English right? Your interest really isnt in facilitating communication but being like your namesake and handle instead right?

If you want to carry on in this manner please start a new thread in the correct forum, this is getting way off topic.

Thanks

I will let you know that we allow a bit of leeway on threads in determining what is off topic or otherwise.

Either way thanks for the comment.

And for your information I was replying with an opinion I had in response to your post.

[TENGU]

Why? Why should Tengu learn Japanese if they dont want to. Key point there. Of course learning some would be helpful but that wasnt what I was talking about and you know that. I gave you an example in reply to your comment about where English could come in handy.

I get the impression from reading your posts that you are the type of person that will reply to a Japanese person in Japanese even if they address you in English right? Your interest really isnt in facilitating communication but being like your namesake and handle instead right?

In that case, let me throw it back at you.

Why should Japanese have to learn English if they dont want to. Key point there too, but you readily skip past giving the students a choice in what they should learn and instead focus on deciding how they should learn what they're being forced to study.

Thanks for telling me who I am and what I do, seriously is the air thinner up there? To whom and in what language I reply is of no concern to you and of no relevance to this thread but I can safely say that I don't respond at all to hasty replies and pithy jabs.

What's my namesake and handle then, please explain.

[Paul]

In that case, let me throw it back at you.

Why should Japanese have to learn English if they dont want to. Key point there too, but you readily skip past giving the students a choice in what they should learn and instead focus on deciding how they should learn what they're being forced to study.

Let me put this simply here, students the world over have to study things that "they" dont want to study. I didnt "want" to take Latin in HS but it was a mandatory subject. I certainly didnt want to take Language Art's courses and I wasnt a fan of math either, but I had to take them.

As long as English is a part of the curriculum here that's one reason why they have to learn English.

You dont give ES and JHS kids a choice in what they are going to study. While I may have my differences of opinion in how it should be taught as far as JHS goes I believe it should be a part of their studies, or at least some foreign language. Yet since MEXT has chosen English then English it shall be. Foreign language studies are an essential part of any curriculum in my opinion.

Thanks for telling me who I am and what I do, seriously is the air thinner up there? To whom and in what language I reply is of no concern to you and of no relevance to this thread but I can safely say that I don't respond at all to hasty replies and pithy jabs.

What's my namesake and handle then, please explain

Nice try but no banana, I didnt tell you who you are or what you do, all I did was tell you what my impression of you was.
Rather large difference there too.

Namesake and handle? Do you know what Tengu means?

Do you really want me to let everyone here who doesnt know as of yet in on it? Oh well since you asked.

A tengu is a long nosed goblin from Japanese legend, similar to your avatar. Today it refers to a person that is a braggart or full of one's self, as in arrogant and stuck up.

That is one definition. And when a Japanese person makes a gesture like they are pulling out or lengthening their nose when talking about another person or what they are talking about it is a reference to that.

Now then there is also one other definition but this isnt the one I was referring to either......
Tengu