You wont believe what JTE said to his students yesterday....

[Shamisen]

They were joking about his hair and he was laughing and then he said....
"SHUT the &uck up!"

Hes been cussing like a sailor recently. In front of first years too since they cant understand. YET.
So who thinks swearing is a legitamate culture point?

Team A: swearing is an important part of western culture and students should be able to tell when they are being disrespected by the local thugs.

Team B: Kids shouldnt be exposed to swearing in other languages until they can
a. understand the REST of South Park. (or other TV shows which frequently use 4 lttr words)
b. speak a full sentence of English and understand what they just said

ready.....


DEBATE!

[Otaku]

I don't think swearing is a legitimate culture point in any language, especially in English where there are words that make people physically cringe. I think you're even a more powerful speaker if you can express yourself verbally without those words.

BTW, I had a JTE once Janken with his class: "saisho gu fcukin' gud!"

[regardo]

swear words are an essential part of any language or culture. i think students should learn them along with the appropriate usage, but they should never be used against them.
that said, i never use swear words in school (who does). the worst i said up till now was "shiiii..." (yes, i didn't even finish) in the teachers room. i use "oh, my god!" a lot. could that be counted as a swear word...? i met some religious freaks who tried to convince me that it is...

just to state the obvious: otaku is up to 299 posts. cheers

[jessen100]

they absoloutly shouldnt be allowed to say or be told any swear words.

hands down.

being that they cant understad a whole shitload of things in english , swearwords, and bad languade is a definate no. Dont get me wrong, im a strong proponent of self expression, but bad words more than anything else in foreign languages are not something you should say.

any japanese person who is called a f#king a$$hole really cant comprehend the actual connotation of what they are being told, and wont fundamentally understand what it means.

its really necessary to grow up understanding this kind of thing in a culture before you get offended, and especially before you try to use such words.

when i hear my studenst swear to me, i just pretend i dont understand and tell them its not english. you can get yourself into a lot of trouble mistakenly using this kind of language were you to use it in the wrong place/time.

people learning english as a foreign language shouldnt be exposed to swear words ever.

your JTE needs to stop using any swear words. now.
totally unacceptable.

[Paul]

Personally I believe that expletives are the last resort of a weak mind, or something like that.

Just because I can swear doesnt mean I like to and in school I think it is one of the worst if not number one worst environments to be doing it.


I have had parents called in to pick their kids up for flipping the bird at me....long story.

Short story your JTE needs a serious talking to imo. Whether or not the kids understand him doesnt matter, next time he pulls crap like that tell your principal or boe about how disrespectful and ignorant it is of him to use that kind of language in a classroom.

[Shamisen]

>>BTW And while Im at it...
>> I REACHED THE 20 POST MARK!!! Free Karma for everyone!!! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.


Jessen..

oooh yes your right... first one has to be on the receiving end, before they know when and how to (not) use it correctly. Hence... I should explain very clearly how offensive it is to swear, make sure they understand all the graphic images and feelings words conjure up, and then say "now listen you useless sack of &%$', go %'%'%' '%'$'&$ '%'%&$64, and '%#&!%#&$ ! "

Hahahhahaahehehehe. Just kidding you know. I understood you perfectly and I agree. (but wouldnt it be fun?)

[jessen100]

people learning english as a foreign language shouldnt be exposed to swear words ever.

totally unacceptable.

incomplete statement

wasnt finished with this before i had to go to class.
obviously people will eventually be exposed to such words, but they shouldnt be until it happens in a real life situation, you can get an ok understanding by movies i guess, but cartoons such as south park ( considering a large premis of the humor in it is being overoffensive) , would probably just confuse anyone learning the language.

it would be fun to say that to your teacher if he would actually get it, but from what i hear, he wouldnt.

[bum1]

I love swearing but I don't do it in school. Its a part of English life that even Japanese adults are shielded from in a way that makes us look racist and exclusive. (Like we have a secret language that we use when they arn't around) I don't teach it in my school, but I think we should. Having a nation of people unequipped to deal with the full reality of a language that many genuinely want to learn is awful and will provide at some point a moment of embarrassmenｔ　(actually many moments until someone is kind enough to sit them down and teach them) to even the most fluent speakers if they ever go abroad (The #1 reason people like English here). English movies and TV have it. (The #2 reason that people like english in this country) Without an understanding of the real meaning of these words these movies and TV shows become frustrating and uncomprehendable. What a waste. People have to know how people express emotion in other languages. Swearing is a MAJOR way that shitloads of people do it.
As for the teacher who swears at his kids... He's an asshole. There are teachers that bitch at their kids in Japanese too. I feel the same about them. That's not the way to get people to cooperate in the classroom in my opinion. Kindness is always the best way to teach kids.

[jessen100]

Without an understanding of the real meaning of these words these movies and TV shows become frustrating and uncomprehendable. What a waste. People have to know how people express emotion in other languages.

the point is, they cant. its impossible.

you know japanese? know any bad words?

in the case that you do, you may think you understand them, but i assure you, you fundamentally do not.

jhs, hs students would only abuse these words anyways.

teaching to mature adults is a different story i guess.
any time that a person is watching a movie to the point where they are understanding english/ for the purpose of studying, they will understand enough to get the meaning from context. it wont be enough to hinder their ability to understand the general meaning. id say there are little to no times when the introduction of curse words to a conversation, will hinder a persons understanding of a movie, especially someone at such a level to me studying in such a manner. in the case of movies, there are way more difficult things to get around as far as listening comprehension, such as metaphors, idioms and the figurative speech used so often in english. swear words are often merely used as adjectives/ adverbs/ pronouns.

[gsuiris]

I used to have adults want me to teach them bad words (not just the 4-letter kind, they wanted racial slurs, etc.,). They wanted to know the bad stuff, stuff I didn't feel comfortable teaching them.

I think it all comes down to the person. I won't teach bad words to my kids, but then again the bad words they want to know are body parts and how to say perverted things.

I have a few kids who like American rap and know some of the bad words. I personally wouldn't teach it at junior high, or even high school. Adults, maybe... but only if I felt comfortable with them.

[Paul]

you know japanese? know any bad words?

in the case that you do, you may think you understand them, but i assure you, you fundamentally do not.

I dont know about that. I can swear just as well in Japanese but the vocabulary is limited.

It's the nuances in the language that count.

[bum1]

Japanese is different in that the only few words that are actually limited by the media are relating to race and handicaps. I have no desire to speak like that. Swearing is not a part of grammar in Japanese. Politeness and rudeness are. High and low status are. Male and female are. It will take my life (I am actually doing this) to explain this and I certainly can't in one post. Anyway, swearing is a part of english grammar. The f-word has more gramatical functions than the word the. Tens and tens of gramatical functions. Shit and damn and bitch have quite a few too. The meanings change so many times that trying to "swear" like this in Japanese is just not possible. Doesn't happen. If it does happen and I"m wrong then you should become world famous and teach everyone. (Including every Japanese person I know) Spanish does have gramatical swear words. I know them because I was taught them. Keeping this "secret grammar" hidden from Japanese (especially adults) is going to wind up seperating us and eventually I am going to find a way to educate Japan about it without doing it in a professional setting. Then this issue can be put to bed. (I'm pretty passionate about this issue so sorry if I seem wacked out) Anyway, I think high school seniors should be taught this as curriculum and that the private language schools should have optional units on the subject.

[bum1]

the point is, they cant. its impossible.

100% wrong. You should meet my wife.

[Paul]

I was taught them. Keeping this "secret grammar" hidden from Japanese (especially adults) is going to wind up seperating us and eventually I am going to find a way to educate Japan about it without doing it in a professional setting. Then this issue can be put to bed. (I'm pretty passionate about this issue so sorry if I seem wacked out) Anyway, I think high school seniors should be taught this as curriculum and that the private language schools should have optional units on the subject.

I have my doubts about how certain you are about the separation part, particularly from the sheer amount of media, meaning TV, movies, etc etc etc, that comes into Japan from the west.

Are you saying you want to try and teach profanity in an unprofessional setting? ?

You know when you do get around to teaching about it I seriously hope that you also teach them that they will be quite possibly taking their own lives into their hands if they use profanity at the wrong place and the wrong time. That is no joke either. Are you also going to teach them about the use of the seriously discriminatory "N" word? Yet how are you going to explain or teach them that in some sections of society some black people will use that term as a greeting or a term of endearment. How are you going to teach them the difference.

Or are you only going to limit your choice of vocabulary to the 7 words you cant use on TV; Shit, Piss, MEXT, Cunt, CockSucker, motherMEXTer, and Tits?

I will tell you this if any Japanese person came up to me and greeted me with a "what the MEXT's up?", I will either rip out his throat or fall down laughing my ass off.


I dont think it would be appropriate to teach even adults the use of profanity UNTIL they have enough of an understanding of English to include colloquial English to include idiomatic English. To get them to understand that just because you can use it doesnt mean one should.

Get this though, I understand and agree with your point about teaching it, but I disagree about your thinking of it being done in an informal or unprofessional manner.

[bum1]

"Are you saying you want to try and teach profanity in an unprofessional setting?"

Yes. Unprofessional and free of charge.
Someday I will do it, but of course explaining the dangers involved and the grammer. I don't feel this issue worth the effort required to get it taught professionally. (Though it"d be better that way) I don't use the N-word. Because my asshole ancestors were slave owners I will never use it. Period. Thats all I'd teach about that.

[Otaku]

hhmm...I think there is a difference between f.uck and nigger. Both can cause aggression, but I think the difference is the second word is not necessarily a bad word, as a racial slur: wigger, cracker, chink, etc.

Correct if I'm wrong?

[Paul]

hhmm...I think there is a difference between f.uck and nigger. Both can cause aggression, but I think the difference is the second word is not necessarily a bad word, as a racial slur: wigger, cracker, chink, etc.

Correct if I'm wrong?

I agree, yet racial slurs are also a large part of profanity for many people as well. I will also say that from at least when I was growing up the socio-economic background of people had a direct reflection on the language one used or grew up with. Race also plays a part in the type of profanity used as well I would think.

I was always told, and believed as well, that profanity was not to be used in so called mixed company. Also I think that it is unappropriate and unacceptable today in business or most social settings.

[bum1]

The n word is not gramatically diverse. It is a noun. There are a few compound nouns and verb that anyone with half a brain could figure out the meaning of by themselves. It's not complicated and versitile like the f word. Which word is more likely to get you shot? Think about it. I value my life. "wigger, cracker, chink, etc" These are bad too, but they weren't used against people while they were getting the crap beaten out of them for not picking enough cotton on an empty stomach. Segregation was only 1 generation away from mine. It hits closer to home.

[Paul]

The n word is not gramatically diverse. It is a noun. There are a few compound nouns and verb that anyone with half a brain could figure out the meaning of by themselves. It's not complicated and versitile like the f word. Which word is more likely to get you shot? Think about it. I value my life. "wigger, cracker, chink, etc" These are bad too, but they weren't used against people while they were getting the crap beaten out of them for not picking enough cotton on an empty stomach. Segregation was only 1 generation away from mine. It hits closer to home.

However the use of the "N" word by someone other than a black person is highly offensive. Yet we often hear rap singers and others within the black community use it in reference to one another. Not very easy to figure out.

I grew up with race riots in my home town and I understand how it hits closer to home. Yet it bothers me that someone is willing to teach profanity as a subject to people that have barely enough understanding or grasp of the English language to use it properly without MEXTing it all to hell with their lousy pronunciation and more than likely their timing as well. Which I say partially tongue in cheek BUT raise the point of who or where does one draw the line in who to teach it to?

[bum1]

In my dream world it would be taught to high school seniors and as a college elective. Also ALL eikaiwa schools for adults should offer training in it as well. The training should be complete with video examples of offensive and friendly use, extensive grammatical explainations, and role playing! . The reality that a great population of English speakers curse regularly without intention to offend anyone warrants this teaching in my opinion.

[regardo]

if my memory doesn't fail me completely. there is a japanese short film where a japanese family is getting ready in the morning and eating breakfast, all they say or scream at each other is the n-word.
anyone know that?
it is 3min of pure japanese crap entertainment.

[Paul]

if my memory doesn't fail me completely. there is a japanese short film where a japanese family is getting ready in the morning and eating breakfast, all they say or scream at each other is the n-word.
anyone know that?
it is 3min of pure japanese crap entertainment.

Are you talking about this?

[junkdna]

Tokyo Breakfast by a Canadian group. Definitely not Japanese production.

[regardo]

ok, that's the one. not japanese, gomene, but still total shite!
....or should i watch it again?

[Shamisen]

Hehehe.. I want to see that. Actaully, the N word is pronounced exactly the same as the Chinese word for "that one"
(can anyone back me up on that? My chinese sucks)

Hmm was it comedian Dane Cook who told the story? Anyway his version was that at a KFC in China (Ive been there, theyre everywhere) there was a black woman in line standing by the menu, and a young boy ran in with his mother and pointed up at the menu (and woman)and shouted
"Ni Gar! Ni Gar!" As in "I want that one, THAT one!"
hooooooooooo boy.

[Otaku]

Dane Cook! A lot of people don't appreciate his humor like I do but I think he's funny as hell!

[bum1]

Agreed. Dane Cook is bad ass.

[dickflem]

A lot of things going on here.

I have recently been thinking about this as my second year students have started, quite suddenly swearing like a bunch of farmers back home.

It started with one kid saying "shit" after making a mistake in class. Apparently he saw it on a DVD. Television corrupts?

After that, I said good morning to some kids at which they happily replied "MEXT you". I laughed but after I asked them where they got it from, they told me a book. Reading is not always a good thing apparently?

The thing for me is that language is hegemonic, that is to say, it assimilates things on the "finge" or "outsider" into the mainstrem.

"Bad" language is still for some people and places, a totally unacceptable method of expression. The last bastion of an inarticulate mind.

For others, it is part of everyday communication.

However, if students want to learn about it, casually, should we not inform them maturely that such expressions exist (because they can very easily be exposed to it) but they should refrain from using them?

[Shamisen]

HAH! that reminds me of something.

Im Elementary school last week, one of the brighter (but easily frustrated) kids noticed the word TOO at the end of "Nice to meet you too". We told everyone it meant "also" and he piped up...

"あのさ、ね、これは　 `I want TO touch your....` 私も座りたいと意味ですか？?"
"So, like then... its `I want TO touch your....` means I ALSO want to touch?"

And sensei and I were too busy asking ourselves "Did he just say what I think he said?" to answer.
What is this kid reading/watching??? I thought he must be damn smart if he knows not to say the last word of that sentence.
But just cheeky enough to try it. 10 years old!

[jessen100]

i love him.
what grade is this?


but on a another note, 座る（すわる） is sit.
I imagine you were going for 触る（さわる）

studying sucks.