Offensive Terms

[Gibbons]

if this were really true then the persons being referred to in any slur should be able to use it freely, that rarely happens, blanket codes of conduct are enforced, like on this site. Simply because it is a site related to Japan, the term Jap must not be used as some people might find it offensive, even people who carry no guilt or shame, through their ancestry, in relation to the term are barred from using it.

I think educated Canadians and Americans do carry shame about the term Jap because reminds us of how we rounded up our own people based entirely on race and put them into concentration camps during WWII. Americans, of course, have to carry much more shame because they tested weapons of mass destruction on innocent people in that country.

Let's talk about Jews for a bit 'cause that fires people up real good. Jews have terms for non-Jews such as gentile and goyem which do definitely have negative connotations to them. It is a clear statement of "these are not God's chosen people". The term gaijin means, "outside person". It is hardly as offensive as "person with the wrong religion".

I know it's all semantics but how about throwing in some anti-semantics to balance things out?

You mean anti-semantics and anti-Semitics are 2 different things. Icelandics can't drive worth beans.

[TENGU]

I think educated Canadians and Americans do carry shame about the term Jap because reminds us of how we rounded up our own people based entirely on race and put them into concentration camps during WWII. Americans, of course, have to carry much more shame because they tested weapons of mass destruction on innocent people in that country.


Let's talk about Jews for a bit 'cause that fires people up real good. Jews have terms for non-Jews such as gentile and goyem which do definitely have negative connotations to them. It is a clear statement of "these are not God's chosen people". The term gaijin means, "outside person". It is hardly as offensive as "person with the wrong religion".

I know it's all semantics but how about throwing in some anti-semantics to balance things out?

You mean anti-semantics and anti-Semitics are 2 different things. Icelandics can't drive worth beans.

And how does this relate to the fact that gaijin is an inherently racist term?

Anyways....................

Internment was for both national and personal security, any lingering guilt was settled with reparations. Case closed.
Weapons were not tested on innocent people. Bombs were dropped on the enemy. Big difference.
I would imagine all languages have terms for people not belonging to their own race, do two wrongs make a right now?

............so again, does any of what you have said negate the fact that "gaijin" is inherently discriminatory in terms of race?

[Paul]

It's a racist term which you obviously have become socialized to accept.

If you consider the word to be racist than what do you call the people of the same "race" that Japanese people come from?

Gaijin is not racist, if it was so then when the Japanese people used it amongst themselves your argument would suggest that they were being racist to their own, but they were not. They were only identifying by a word within their own language people that were different than themselves.

It has nothing to do with race.

[TENGU]

It's a racist term which you obviously have become socialized to accept.

If you consider the word to be racist than what do you call the people of the same "race" that Japanese people come from?

Gaijin is not racist, if it was so then when the Japanese people used it amongst themselves your argument would suggest that they were being racist to their own, but they were not. They were only identifying by a word within their own language people that were different than themselves.

It has nothing to do with race.

Are you talking pre or post Perry?

Maybe you can dig back into etymology and explain the individual Kanji next.


I'll do it for you

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/%E5%A4%96/m0u/
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/all/%E4%BA%BA/m0u/
http://wpedia.goo.ne.jp/wiki/%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA


意味

「外人」との表記は日本語の語彙に古くからあるものであり、元来はよそ者、関係のない第三者を意味したものでこの場合は「ぐわいじん」と発音し現代の「がいじん」とは意味合いが異なる。現代では、「外人」は一般に「外国人」の略語で使われているが、非東洋系の外国人、特に白人・西洋人を指して使われることが多い。これは東洋系の国の人々は「中国人」「韓国人（朝鮮人）」「台湾人」のようにそれぞれの国名や民族名で呼ばれることが多いためである。また、同じアジア系の人間と異なり肌や髪の色で判別しやすい事も要因に挙げられる。非東洋人である黒人やインド人に使われることもあるが歴史的経緯から渡来する数が少なく、結果として白人を指して使われることが多い。



http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/racism?view=uk

Ｔｈａｎｋｓ

[TENGU]

[bum1]

Wow this is so Mexting long. Jesus.

Here's how it works guys. If the word was historically used while the users berated/enslaved/blew up the targets then its OFFENSIVE to those people.
Jap was a term used in WW2 when Americans considered them the enemy and blew em up. Thats why most of em don't like us calling them that. I can understand it. The same goes for black people. They can call themselves that shit all day because they wern't beating themselves with whips in the cotton fields without paying for the labor. The white colonists were doing that. That's why its offensive to them. I don't get offended by much. I am pretty damn offensive so I try not to get worked up over shit. (This includes gaijin) It doesn't bother me. I think the word ailen is worse but it doesn't bother me either.

[bum1]

Also a person born and raised in America by Japanese is still a gaigin. That is the non racial part of the word.

[TENGU]

Wow this is so Mexting long. Jesus.

Would I be wrong in thinking you didn't read the whole thing carefully? [please don't use the Lord's name like that you might offend a believer]


Anyways, on with the show

Here's how it works guys. If the word was historically used while the users berated/enslaved/blew up the targets then its OFFENSIVE to those people.

gee thanks for straightening that out. Victim card aside does contemporary berating count??

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E9%A9%9A%E6%84%95%E3%81%AE%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA%E7%8A%AF%E7%BD%AA%E8%A3%8F%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB%E2%80%95%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA%E7%8A%AF%E7%BD%AA%E7%99%BD%E6%9B%B82007-EICHI-MOOK/dp/4754256182

That is the non racial part of the word.

Here is the meaning of

「racial」　　 http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/racial?view=uk

and

「racist」　　http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/racism?view=uk

You may want to revise the last statement.

Also a person born and raised in America by Japanese is still a gaigin. That is the non racial part of the word.

Toys RUSerious? . Don't take it personally but I won't point out the glaring idiocy of the statement I'll use a meme instead.




next....................

edited for Paul

[bum1]

Ok Tengu.... First off posting that picture as a response instead of making a logical argument doesn't tell anyone anything... Is Japanese a race or a nationality to you? (Or both)

[TENGU]

Ok Tengu.... First off posting that picture as a response instead of making a logical argument doesn't tell anyone anything... Is Japanese a race or a nationality to you? (Or both)

Your initial post was nonsensical and thus couldn't be logically responded to, how would you expect me to respond?


Which definition of race are you referring to? I can't answer without knowing that.

[bum1]

Not an indy 500 race or the rat race. Not a ginger root. I'll use a dictionary so that you don't get confused.

a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

This leads into the definitions you so kindly provided...

racial
• adjective 1 of or relating to a race. 2 relating to relations or differences between races.

racism
noun 1 the belief that there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race. 2 discrimination against or antagonism towards other races.

Judging by these definitions. And the definition of gaigin:

gaijin= foreigner

I think that gaijin is not a racist word. I don't think foreigner is a racist word. It could be nationalist. It definately could be discriminatory, but not racist as stated by your and my definitions.

You said "it's {gaijin is} a racist term which you {Paul} obviously have become socialized to accept."

How is it racist by these definitions? I'm tempted to repost your fractal picture for you, but since you put so much time and creativity into making it I won't infringe...

[TENGU]

Are you a masochist?

Not an indy 500 race or the rat race. Not a ginger root. I'll use a dictionary {edited to suit my stance} so that you don't get confused.

a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
b. an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.

Vely interesting, I see you pulled your definition from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race

and twisted definition 3a and 3b to look like the main definitions and support your argument. Below is the full definition (from that site)

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Nice try but no prize, that was a cheap shot, low by any standards, but anyway back to your question.

Is Japanese a race or a nationality to you?

Based on your source and from a non Japanese perspective, the Japanese may be considered a race in terms of: 1; 2; 3c; 5. From a Japanese perspective I would consider some of them consider themselves a race in terms of 1; 2; 3a; 3b; 3c; 5. (However whenever I hear the 3b 3c crap spewing out from one I remind them of http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=550F8C8F5A162606 which NHK moved on really quickly)

As for Nationality based on my preferred dictionary, the OED,

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I would say that from a non Japanese perspective anyone holding a Japanese passport, regardless of their birthplace would technically be a Japanese national, however that does not automatically confer race on said person if we are bound by the Japanese perspective as stated above. I think that to many true Japanese (born to two Japanese parents, raised in Japan) , a person born overseas would fall foul of definition 5. of race and not be considered a part of the Japanese race proper.　　


Do you know what 日系 (nikkei) or 在日 (zainichi) means? They're other segregational (read: racist) terms to make clear the distinction between blue blooded Japanese and others, anyway I digress..................

Back on track......

This leads into the definitions you so kindly provided...

racial
• adjective 1 of or relating to a race. 2 relating to relations or differences between races.

racism
noun 1 the belief that there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race. 2 discrimination against or antagonism towards other races.

compare the bold sections with sections 1; 2; 3a; 3b; 3c; 5 of the unedited definition of race and

Judging by these definitions. And the definition of gaigin:

http://wpedia.goo.ne.jp/wiki/%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA
意味

「外人」との表記は日本語の語彙に古くからあるものであり、元来はよそ者、関係のない第三者を意味したものでこの場合は「ぐわいじん」と発音し現代の「がいじん」とは意味合いが異なる。現代では、「外人」は一般に「外国人」の略語で使われているが、非東洋系の外国人、特に白人・西洋人を指して使われることが多い (used to distinguish non orientals, ESPECIALLY WHITE WESTERNERS)。これは東洋系の国の人々は「中国人」「韓国人（朝鮮人）」「台湾人」のようにそれぞれの国名や民族名で呼ばれることが多いためである。また、同じアジア系の人間と異なり肌や髪の色で判別しやすい事も要因に挙げられる。非東洋人である黒人やインド人に使われることもあるが歴史的経緯から渡来する数が少なく、結果として白人を指して使われることが多い。 (it is mainly used to point out white people)

gaijin= foreigner

is wrong as the implied and historical meaning is related to white westerners, using gaijin to refer to all non Japanese is the same kind of laziness as saying Jap instead of Japanese. However you dress it up it is unpleasant {ねー　Paul}

I think that gaijin is not a racist word. I don't think foreigner is a racist word. It could be nationalist. It definately could be discriminatory, but not racist as stated by your and my definitions.

to quote the definition of racism again

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/racism?view=uk

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to help you understand

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You said "it's {gaijin is} a racist term which you {Paul} obviously have become socialized to accept."

How is it racist by these definitions?

I can only lead the horse to water.....

I'm tempted to repost your fractal picture for you, but since you put so much time and creativity into making it I won't infringe...

yes about 15 seconds in photoshop, apparently about the same length of time you spent thinking about your last post.


Next.....

[Paul]

Tengu keep it civil.

Here is a reminder for you.......This is from the Forum rules which you can see posted at the top of the page.

Healthy discourse obviously is going to sometimes bring about more serious emotive posts. Please keep in mind, attacking someone's opinions are okay, but personally insulting someone will not be tolerated. In other words, ad hominem attacks are a big no-no. If it happens, you'll receive a warning. After that, please don't make us explain what happens after that...

[TENGU]

Tengu keep it civil.

Here is a reminder for you.......This is from the Forum rules which you can see posted at the top of the page.

Healthy discourse obviously is going to sometimes bring about more serious emotive posts. Please keep in mind, attacking someone's opinions is okay, but personally insulting someone will not be tolerated. In other words, ad hominem attacks are a big no-no. If they happen, you'll receive a warning. Please don't make us explain what happens after that...

Where did I personally insult anybody? Please clarify that for me.

We're not in ES now so you don't need to speak down to me, if you have an issue with something I said and wish to address it in open forum please quote the offending text, doing so will allow me to ascertain where the lines are drawn.

Not an indy 500 race or the rat race. Not a ginger root. I'll use a dictionary so that you don't get confused.

is the preceding text considered to be near that line? ..............inquiring minds wish to know.


If you have anything to add to the thread in support of your earlier comments I would love to hear it, you seemed to have such strong convictions and it would be great to continue healthy discourse with you.

I'd also be interested in knowing why you only mention this to me, I see other comments verging on being personal attacks but you don't mention them, it almost seems like this is personal...................

So again, please point out the offending text and I will edit it accordingly.


Yours.

TENGU


ps I fixed the grammar in the rules quote, pro bono

[Paul]

I am not going to debate this with you, and it is nothing personal either, you know very well how to be civil.

The rules are plain to see and easy to follow.

Enjoy your break.....we will see you in one week.

I am sorry that it had to come to this, you have been warned both publicly and privately.

(Edited to add here 9/17/09 .....since you chose to go around the 1 week ban, and go to the trouble of creating another account, going through a proxy server no less, just to make a post here, which has been deleted, the ban has now been extended to 2 weeks. You were warned on more than one occasion.)

[jessen100]

gaijin= foreigner

i think this is less than accurate at least to a point. outsider is a better term i think. I have heard gaijin used toward japanese people who were out of their group as well. it doesnt have to be for foreigners.

while its short for a word that means foreigner, it still has its own seperate meaning, which i think is the part that people find offensive, since even if you mean it as foreigner it still carries the outsider nuance.

some may consider it racit and others might not, but i dont think that the offensive nuance can be denied.

[Paul]

gaijin= foreigner

i think this is less than accurate at least to a point. outsider is a better term i think. I have heard gaijin used toward japanese people who were out of their group as well. it doesnt have to be for foreigners.

while its short for a word that means foreigner, it still has its own seperate meaning, which i think is the part that people find offensive, since even if you mean it as foreigner it still carries the outsider nuance.

some may consider it racit and others might not, but i dont think that the offensive nuance can be denied.

I wholeheartedly agree that the word itself has the potential to have an offensive nuance. Just like the word immigrant in the US had and still has to some today. I think that it matters on how and who is saying it and in what context as well.

I also think that the Japanese language itself needs to adapt more to accept new words as Japanese and quit making the distinction of gaidai-go and Japanese.

Your post here reminded me of something from quite a few years ago. I learned something about the word gaijin from a Japanese friend of mine, we had a rather interesting discussion about the use of the word and how he viewed it was that Japanese view the perverbial outsider as gaijin, and yes usually the white or black foreigner, even when they are abroad. They don't consider themselves gaijin but as foreigners when they are overseas. I made the point of saying that "Hey you are the gaijin when you go to the states" and he replied with "No, you are still the gaijin to us, we are foreigners."

He also went on to point out that in his opinion many foreigners living here in Japan often misunderstand the nuance between the words as well.

It's all in the delivery.

I then proceeded to ask him what the difference was between the words themselves and he said while they may have the same meaning to me as a foreigner/gaijin living in Japan to him the average Japanese person only sees others as gaijin. I scratched my head on that one for quite a while but then eventually it dawned on me that what he was saying is that it comes from the manner in which Japanese view themselves and their language as well. He also made the comment that he thought that in comparison to English the Japanese language lacked the proper vocabulary to express itself in a manner more acceptable to people who are not Japanese. He agreed with me when I suggested that gaidai-go be called Japanese and incorporate them into the language much in the same manner English as incorporated Japanese words or other countries words into itself as well.

However he also pointed out that it is a matter of pride to many of the so-called educated elite here that Japanese stay Japanese and that the language should not be bastardized by including other country's vocabulary into it. I then suggested to him tongue in cheek that he get those educated elite to start creating new words and start increasing the Japanese kanji so many some of the confusion and misunderstanding might be aleviated.

He just laughed and we 'ed our night away.

[jessen100]

ive had planty japanese people tell me that if they went to america that they would be the gaijin, so yea...

sounds like your friend just used something like a its-my-language-i-make the-rules-im-right-your-wrong-argument, to put an end to it. you cant just deny every other prespective because it doesnt suit the principle the way you like it.

Saying that just because its the japanese language, it can only be used to suit the japanese point of view, is just rediculous.

"No, you are still the gaijin to us, we are foreigners."
this sentence is saying such.

this sentence extends to itself the liberties of english without allowing the same of japanese language.
If speakers of english were so inclined we could at the same time say, no, you arent a foreigner youre a Jap.

basically what im saying is that the claim that guy made is elitist, arrogant (is that redundant?)and wrong.

[Paul]

sounds like your friend just used something like a its-my-language-i-make the-rules-im-right-your-wrong-argument, to put an end to it. you cant just deny every other prespective because it doesnt suit the principle the way you like it.

Quite so, I also believe that it made him rather uncomfortable as well.

Saying that just because its the japanese language, it can only be used to suit the japanese point of view, is just rediculous.

"No, you are still the gaijin to us, we are foreigners."
this sentence is saying such.

I wouldnt go so far as to say it was ridiculous, because it does give me an insight into how at least he looked at himself and his language. He thought of himself as a foreigner while in the US, the outsider, which is accurate as well. He couldnt bring himself to see himself as a gaijin because of the meaning of the word as he views it.

this sentence extends to itself the liberties of english without allowing the same of japanese language.
If speakers of english were so inclined we could at the same time say, no, you arent a foreigner youre a Jap.

basically what im saying is that the claim that guy made is elitist, arrogant (is that redundant?)and wrong.

I also would not call him elitist either, he is however rather naive and ignorant of how many foreigners who have lived here or do live here in Japan view people like him.

Yet how many languages like English do you know that are adaptive and inclusive of new vocabulary? I dont know hence the question. Japanese is narrow from that point of view.

I often ask kids in class to explain new vocabulary in Japanese, words from the textbook that have no actual or readily known Japanese for them. Like the word rock concert from the Speaking Plus 1 pg 28 of the New Horizon textbook. How do you say that in Japanese? How about translating deadball from Japanese to English? Totally different meaning altogether.

My point is that the language here has already incorporated so many words from English into daily conversation with many of the words having absolutely no meaning in English that they should be considered rightful too as Japanese.

I guess what I would like to see is Japan eventually get to the point where the word foreigner is used to describe foreigners use the kanji 外人　or 外国人, but pronounce it foreigner. Then there would be less ambiguity and people who get their noses bent out of shape when they get called either of those terms would learn to live with it.

[bum1]

Damn I didn't mean to get him banned. If he comes back I'll continue the debate. I'm in agreement that gaijin is more like outsider than foreigner but that still doesn't make it racist. Japanese call anyone who isn't from Japan a gaijin and in my experience they do it indiscriminately. Black, white, korean, non native Japanese Latino.. whaterer.

[Paul]

Damn I didn't mean to get him banned. If he comes back I'll continue the debate. I'm in agreement that gaijin is more like outsider than foreigner but that still doesn't make it racist. Japanese call anyone who isn't from Japan a gaijin and in my experience they do it indiscriminately. Black, white, korean, non native Japanese Latino.. whaterer.

Bum please rest assured that you had nothing to do with getting him banned.

I also agree with your post here as well! I feel that some people make too big of a deal out of it, kind of like making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[gsuiris]

Don't want to dragged in to the other arguments, but I know some of my family would find the term "Yank" offensive. For many people in the American south, being called a yank offends their heritage. To them Yanks = The North.

Personally, I don't care, but it is amusing that so many people use the term for all Americans, when some Americans believe that it doesn't apply to them.

[lkelly2477]

If I may chime in also. I find the "N" word offensive no matter who uses it. But it has been accepted by many nowadays unfortunately.

Nobody mentioned "cracker" or "whitey". Is anybody on here form America that would be offended by these?

[Paul]

If I may chime in also. I find the "N" word offensive no matter who uses it. But it has been accepted by many nowadays unfortunately.

Nobody mentioned "cracker" or "whitey". Is anybody on here form America that would be offended by these?

I am not offended and personally if someone were to call me either of these terms I would just consider the source and go on with my day.

I do find the N word to be offensive as well and would wish that black people in America stop using it amongst themselves as well.

[crustpunker]

I am of mixed blood but to most people I appear to be caucasian I suppose. I cannot think of a single "racist" term for whites that would ever offend me.
What the hell even is there? Whitey? Cracker? Blue eyed devil? Wigga? Honkey? Whitebread? Most of these are so outdated they are laughable anyway. Also, alot of these terms really apply to more of a niche rather then to the whole white race.

White people who could possibly get offended by any of these terms are in my opinion just dumb.

[crustpunker]

Perhpas this whole drama stems from the fact that maybe Japanese isn't the most descriptive of langugages and relies heavily on inference and being subtle in most situations outside of very close personal relationships. Becuase of this Japanese uses quite a lot of blanket language in the sense that often times a single phrase or even just a single word can represent quite a lot or cover a lot of ground. Of course I realize that this happens in all languages but in Japanese, at least to me it seems to be more prevelant. Because of this, Using a word like gaijin can easily cause a misunderstanding for well, gaijins whereas most Japanese people probably think to themselves, "Well, what else would I call someone from another country?" gaijin for a lot of people is the word that has been in the Japanese lexicon and so remains to be the easiset word for Japanese people to use to describe people from other countries. I suppose in contrast, a Japanese person would probably feel that it would be more appropriate to use such a general word to describe foreigners in situations where they don't specifically know where said foreigner might be from. I imagine that to alot of Japanese people, calling someone an "American" and then finding out they are from someone else might be embarrasing for both the Japanese and the non Japanese person (in their mind) so they stick with a term that they feel is "safe" To me it is really just as simple as that.

If you have ever been called a gaijin by an older person, a young child, or someone like that you will obviously be able to tell the marked differernce between their tone of voice and someone who says it to you in an agressive or intentionally confrontational manner.

This is just my take on this at the moment. I think foreigners who are easily offended by the term gaijin need to consider much more the source rather then how this word might make them feel based on their own personal perception of what "gaijin" means to them. If then, you feel that it is worth your time to perhaps educate the individual about "what the word gaijin means to me" either with a flying Macedonian heel kick or a kind word then hey, that's up to you.

[crustpunker]

Oh and here is a link to something in response to the word "Jap" being "a common word in American English" from the Japan Times

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/rc20081225a5.html

[Otaku]

On the 'gaijin' point, I've heard teachers at my school say "gaijin" in reference to other Japanese people as well. They were referring to people who come to the school who didn't work there or had no part of the school.

[TENGU]

Seems that's been resolved then, now for another crowd pleasure.