Divorce in Japan

[himitsu]

In our modern world, divorce is still seen as something bad in Japan, and you`d get the "failure" brand from many people here.
I wonder, does anyone here have any experiences or stories to tell in this context? Anyone divorced before? What were the reactions from Japanese (especially gfs)?

[Paul]

In our modern world, divorce is still seen as something bad in Japan, and you`d get the "failure" brand from many people here.
I wonder, does anyone here have any experiences or stories to tell in this context? Anyone divorced before? What were the reactions from Japanese (especially gfs)?

I wonder why you made the statement "as something bad in Japan"? In my experience with people here who have been involved with divorces, things here are so much cleaner than lets say in the US.

Also I have searched my memory and can not find even one case where someone thought that anyone's divorce was "bad". Meaning there was no stigma or failure associated with their divorce.

[gsuiris]

A friend of mine is divorced and has one child with his former wife.

He said they got divorced because they fought a lot, especially in front of the child. I don't know how much of a stigma there is about it among Japanese people though, but he seem uncomfortable with it.
He also told me that it is usual for men to not see their children after they get divorced. He said he really regrets essentially throwing away his child.

If you think about it, they still call getting a divorce "batsu ichi" so it does carry a very negative connotation.

[jeisensei]

I agree with you saying they call themselves batsu ichi or batsu ni and so on, but I don't think a lot of people here see it negatively to any grand extent. I have seen people on TV wear that title with pride as well.

[peet]

I've noticed definitely more stigma than in US or other western countries, but not so much that anyone would try to keep it secret or anything.

This did remind me though of news articles I saw earlier this year. I guess other countries are putting pressure on Japan to conform to international standards for child custody law, citing child abductions which are presumably because of Japan's system of mother retaining all custody, and father having no contact:
http://www.internationalfamilylawfirm.com/2011/05/cnn-article-japan-takes-step-closer-to.html
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2056454,00.html

[Paul]

citing child abductions which are presumably because of Japan's system of mother retaining all custody, and father having no contact:

While they are the exception rather than the norm I am fairly certain I personally know of three guys who divorced their wives and kept custody of the children and raised them themselves. I have also "heard" of a number of cases where the grandparents forced the son to take custody of one of the children, in each case the eldest son, of the eldest son, because of their fears of not having the eldest son available to carry on with the family altar. Actually splitting siblings apart from each other.

There is no joint custody in Japan, and many if not most kids, according to the courts here, are better off with their mothers, because in many if not most cases, the kids have very little interaction with their father's anyway and are better off with the mother, even if it means a financial sacrifice for the mother. It's a screwed up system.

[Otaku]

I would dare argue kids of divorced parents aren't better off with either parent, considering the fact the grandparents play a major role in the kid's child-rearing.

[pakalikaPakalika]

I am going through a divorce right now. The paper was handed into the City hall office about 2 months. BUt me and my ex both agree that the kids need both parents in there life. She sees how hard things are now that I am gone. I pay child support according to the Japanese law. I see my kids at least once every month or 2 months. I call them and talk to them at least twice a week or more. The mom has no problem with it. It all comes down to how both parents feel about the kids. If they want to be in there lives or not. What makes things hard is when the mother starts treating the kids like they are something she bought and has a recipe for the. Then things get hard and it hurts the kids in the long run. Especially with my kids because they are half and when they get older there is going to be a ton of question of why am I like this or why is this. That I will only be able to answer. When parents look out for the best interest of the kids then things get easier.

[Otaku]

I am going through a divorce right now. The paper was handed into the City hall office about 2 months. BUt me and my ex both agree that the kids need both parents in there life. She sees how hard things are now that I am gone. I pay child support according to the Japanese law. I see my kids at least once every month or 2 months. I call them and talk to them at least twice a week or more. The mom has no problem with it. It all comes down to how both parents feel about the kids. If they want to be in there lives or not. What makes things hard is when the mother starts treating the kids like they are something she bought and has a recipe for the. Then things get hard and it hurts the kids in the long run. Especially with my kids because they are half and when they get older there is going to be a ton of question of why am I like this or why is this. That I will only be able to answer. When parents look out for the best interest of the kids then things get easier.

You have my respect and condolences. I wish you the best in your situation.

And, please ignore my last post's smartassedness statement.

[jeisensei]

And, please ignore my last post's smartassedness statement.

It's at that point that I actually go back and see just how smartassed it was

[Paul]

Then things get hard and it hurts the kids in the long run. Especially with my kids because they are half and when they get older there is going to be a ton of question of why am I like this or why is this. That I will only be able to answer. When parents look out for the best interest of the kids then things get easier.

Don't take this wrong here, I am responding from experience here.

There are others that can answer the questions your children have about being multi-cultural. About being "half", there are lots of people around that have "been there-done that" and have experienced what your children have yet to go through. Hell even my kids could do it as well, they're "half" and they have their own experiences with their heritage too.

The only thing you can do is continue to be their father, love them, stay a part of their lives, and make sure that they know that they are not alone. That's the one thing that only you can do. And that is all that matters.

[himitsu]

1. I wonder why you made the statement "as something bad in Japan"? In my experience with people here who have been involved with divorces, things here are so much cleaner than lets say in the US.

2. Also I have searched my memory and can not find even one case where someone thought that anyone's divorce was "bad". Meaning there was no stigma or failure associated with their divorce.

1. I'm not sure what you mean by "cleaner", maybe the divorce process itself? If so, that's true, it's extremely easier and less complicated than abroad, that's great, but what I meant was the image you get if you are divorced.

2. That's indeed surprising. Maybe because it's much more common in Okinawa? I don't know. But like gsuiris already mentioned, the "batsu ichi/ni/san" does definitely have a negative feeling, even though it's probably decreasing and doesn't apply for all people.

Well, the reason I brought up this topic, I met a girl the other day and we came to like each other a lot, and after 2 weeks or so I told her I used to be married and got divorced. She knew I lived with someone for several years, just not that it was official. Well, I was quite shocked to see how much that shocked her. Ok, she's rather young and said she never expected to be with someone who was divorced before, but still, my 2-3 ex-gfs didn't have such a problem with it (sth. she was surprised about). She actually was thinking we shouldn't meet any more, and was a bit relieved that at least I don't have children. There are certainly several reasons for her reaction and way of thinking, one being that she thought it would complicate things a lot (ex-wife disturbing our relationship, money I have to pay, etc. - there's nothing like that though). I told her she can talk with her friends about it too, and see what they think (me actually thinking she was an exception and most young people don't care about such things anymore).
Now the other day she met a (female) friend and they talked about this too, and I asked her what her friend said; apparently she said sth. like "are you sure that's ok? isn't it better to stop seeing him?" ... I couldn't believe it, to say the least. Don't know what I'd have done if I was there that time, but certainly nothing peaceful.. When asking her why her friend would say sth. like that, she said that she probably thought I must have done sth wrong that it came to that.
Sounded to me about the same like the prejudices against blacks or Chinese or so. Someone who has never met me, thinks I'm a bad person because I was unhappy once and wanted to change that (ie. divorce)..
It's impossible for me to see any reason there...

@pakalika sorry for you, but hopefully it will turn out well in the end.
Anyway, I think the best for children is when the parents are happy, no matter if together or separated. I for my part wouldn't want to see my mother or father unhappy all the time.
Would be interesting to see what reactions you'll get yourself with future partners.

[Paul]

Maybe because it's much more common in Okinawa?

Could be, Okinawa from what I heard has the highest divorce rate in all of Japan, something close to 50% I believe.

[himitsu]

true. one reason is certainly that they get married very early (prematurely), around 20. I don't know the reason for that though.
(used to live in Okinawa for half a year, just a side note tho)
Actually the divorce rate in Japan is about 25-35% (France, eg., is also about 1/3), higher than one might think. And before the 20th century it was even higher, 40-50%. For some reason it dropped suddenly after 1898 and stayed so until 1960. (That's when it got the negative stigma.) Researchers still argue about the reason for that.

Have you guys heart about those divorce ceremonies in Japan? That's kinda funny. Or maybe not, maybe they actually need something formal, or something big, to be able to carry it out ("I really want it, won't stand it anymore, no matter what others think or say")

[Paul]

true. one reason is certainly that they get married very early (prematurely), around 20.

Actually the biggest reason for the high divorce rate here is that parents are willing to take their daughters or sons back into the family home after the divorce and if there are kids they can move in too. Okinawan's have a thing, in their culture where the families will take care of each other no matter the situation. Not 100% mind you, but damn close.

In mainland once the kid leaves the nest, particularly the girls, they are gone and don't have anywhere to turn to really, like here, to support them and many just suck it up. ANd dont think for a moment that their spouses dont know this either.

[himitsu]

but I think it applies for most of Japan, not just Okinawa

[Paul]

but I think it applies for most of Japan, not just Okinawa

Which?

[pakalikaPakalika]

@pakalika sorry for you, but hopefully it will turn out well in the end.
Anyway, I think the best for children is when the parents are happy, no matter if together or separated. I for my part wouldn't want to see my mother or father unhappy all the time.
Would be interesting to see what reactions you'll get yourself with future partners.

That is one thing I come to understand when it comes to dating now after being married. Something do not need to be known. Especially only after 2 weeks. I am seeing a girl now, actually living with. She knows I have kids. But that is as far as it goes. She has said she is not ready to see the kids. I told her that is fine. Maybe in the future I will tell her, but not right not. I know she would not be comfortable with it.

[pakalikaPakalika]

Then things get hard and it hurts the kids in the long run. Especially with my kids because they are half and when they get older there is going to be a ton of question of why am I like this or why is this. That I will only be able to answer. When parents look out for the best interest of the kids then things get easier.

Don't take this wrong here, I am responding from experience here.

There are others that can answer the questions your children have about being multi-cultural. About being "half", there are lots of people around that have "been there-done that" and have experienced what your children have yet to go through. Hell even my kids could do it as well, they're "half" and they have their own experiences with their heritage too.

The only thing you can do is continue to be their father, love them, stay a part of their lives, and make sure that they know that they are not alone. That's the one thing that only you can do. And that is all that matters.

Yes and no to that. I mean yes there are a few half kids around. Hell they live close to a base. But not that close where there will be half kids every where. My son and daughter are the only american's kids in there schools. So as they get older my thinking is I will be the one who answers the questions of daddy why am I like this, or why is this like this and being the father and the american way of doing things, I will answer them. I don't think they would go ask other kids who are half.

[himitsu]

Which?

"parents are willing to take their daughters or sons back into the family home after the divorce and if there are kids they can move in too. Okinawan's have a thing, in their culture where the families will take care of each other no matter the situation. "

That is one thing I come to understand when it comes to dating now after being married. Something do not need to be known. Especially only after 2 weeks. I am seeing a girl now, actually living with. She knows I have kids. But that is as far as it goes. She has said she is not ready to see the kids. I told her that is fine. Maybe in the future I will tell her, but not right not. I know she would not be comfortable with it.

Yeah, maybe my timing wasn`t right, I don`t know. But that`s the question, when is the right timing? At the beginning (1st date? 2nd? When?) ? Or rather late, like after half a year or a year?
What do you guys think?

[gsuiris]

Seeing as I am an American and being divorced doesn't bother me, I can't give a good answer.
I think maybe a few dates, or when you start to think you may really like the person. Bring it up slowly too - maybe wait until she starts talking about her past relationships.
Too early and you will scare them off, but wait for too long and they will get mad that you were hiding something.

My friend told me after our first date, but there were special circumstances surrounding it.

[Paul]

Yes and no to that. I mean yes there are a few half kids around. Hell they live close to a base. But not that close where there will be half kids every where. My son and daughter are the only american's kids in there schools. So as they get older my thinking is I will be the one who answers the questions of daddy why am I like this, or why is this like this and being the father and the american way of doing things, I will answer them. I don't think they would go ask other kids who are half.

If you are around them then to be honest I wouldnt expect them to ask "why" too much as they will see the obvious and understand, one never knows though. I can't openly share, as on the general forum, about certain things that I am referring to and I apologize for that, if you are interested I wouldnt mind sharing via a PM.

I

[Paul]

"parents are willing to take their daughters or sons back into the family home after the divorce and if there are kids they can move in too. Okinawan's have a thing, in their culture where the families will take care of each other no matter the situation. "

First Okinawan's now a days dont get married at 20 so much, probably not any more or less than anywhere else in Japan. In mainland though many women gaman-suru when it comes to their husbands and the crap they deal with, sure many divorce, and in talking with folks from there, there is more of a feeling that if once a daughter leaves the house she can't go back.

[himitsu]

I think maybe a few dates, or when you start to think you may really like the person. Bring it up slowly too - maybe wait until she starts talking about her past relationships.
Too early and you will scare them off, but wait for too long and they will get mad that you were hiding something.

Exactly my thought! That's why I waited two weeks. Later she said she wouldn't have been so shocked if I had told her from the beginning (but she might have not seen me any more ). My best friend asked his girlfriend what her reaction would be, and she said that if it was now (they've been together for a year) she wouldn't care, cause they already have a solid basis. Well, I don't know, maybe I made the right choice in the end..

[pakalikaPakalika]

That is one thing I come to understand when it comes to dating now after being married. Something do not need to be known. Especially only after 2 weeks. I am seeing a girl now, actually living with. She knows I have kids. But that is as far as it goes. She has said she is not ready to see the kids. I told her that is fine. Maybe in the future I will tell her, but not right not. I know she would not be comfortable with it.

Yeah, maybe my timing wasn`t right, I don`t know. But that`s the question, when is the right timing? At the beginning (1st date? 2nd? When?) ? Or rather late, like after half a year or a year?
What do you guys think?[/quote]

It just depends on you I guess. Talk about, slowly, Not dumping it all on her at one time. Knowing that when you tell her things she does not freak out over it would let you know it is a good time to tell her

[gsuiris]

I think if I was with someone for a year and they waited to tell me I would be pissed. I would feel a bit betrayed and would probably think that they didn't trust me.

[jessen100]

how do you think it compares to other relationships though? Would you expect someone to tell you about other past long term relationships? i mean in comparison of some people who date for like 3+ years then break up to others who date for maybe around a year, get maried then divorced right away (my cousin).

i feel like most women would ask about relationship history anyway though, so its not like something you you have to be responsible for just bringing up. "oh hey, i was divorced once" i dont know though, personally my history book is pretty thin. Either way a year seems like a pretty long time for that to not come up into the subject of conversation at leat once.

[himitsu]

I think there are just different types of people, some want to know almost everything (like me), others don't want to hear a thing cause it makes them jealous..

[Paul]

I met my wife at a birthday party on January 12th 1986 in Okinawa. We got married on Friday 13th of June 1986. That's 25 years ago.

Short or long, it all depends upon the couple and how much they both are willing to put up with each others shit! I am no angel, and neither is my wife, and there have been a number of times that we both wanted divorces, along with wanting to kill each other too! For us the hardest times were after the 7th year or so and after the 15th to 16th. We managed to get over those.

The key for me anyway is this, never expect more than you are willing to give in a relationship and don't think of it as a 50/50 proposition, because if you do you end up always expecting your 50% in return. That and realizing that every argument is not a war to the death. Time does help to heal wounds, but memories will always be there, it helps to have more happy ones to recall when in an argument and contemplating divorce, it helps you to remember why you got married in the first place.

[himitsu]

wise words, thanks Paul! Will try to keep that in mind in future :)